How is it possible to be a feminist and support the sex industry?

[Molesworth]

I've just been reading this article from the guardian. Young girls are being sold to brothel keepers and made to take steroids so that they look older than they really are.

All my instincts say that the sex industry is just plain wrong. I know some feminists think it's OK (although obviously they wouldn't support practices like those described in the article). Are there any sex industry supporting feminists here? What's the rationale?

I responded to those that mocked and belittled me and used derogatory language. I have used a lot of restraint given some of the posts. I reserve the right to participate in this debate as a feminist. I insist that my occupation does not exclude me.

I won?t play the role of the poor victim nor blindly accept ignorance and doctrine.

Besides I got quite a good reception from quite a number of posters whom I am grateful to. Luckily, not everyone is totally blinkered

No-one is trying to stop you participating in the debate, MissHM. No-one is saying that your occupation excludes you. No-one is asking you to play the role of victim or to blindly accept anything. As you can see, Mandamumu is joining in and being respectfully listened to with interest. If you dislike derogatory language, then it might be an idea to stop using it yourself.

MissHM if you think that your unique and subjective account of escorting is a more accurate description of prostitution than several research studies there's not much we can say to you about the horrors those women suffered.

But at least you find the discussion amusing lol.

I can't stand this thread anymore. It's not often I get so angry about another human being. Hiding the thread now.

"Another irony is that Manda and me are chastised for the language we use yet some posters use ridiculous phrases such as ?Johns? etc which none of us use. Mock us belittle us but at least accept that each group will have his own terminology. Using the word ?John? is stupid and ridiculous ? no person in the UK speaks like some cheap US drama."

I am not sure that the word 'John' is such a stupid and ridiculous word and is not sometimes used in the UK. It looks like it is sometimes used outside of the boudoir.

In the Times newspaper, an English punter says "First, let me explode some myths about Johns"
women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article3539987.ece

and in a UK left-wing political blog the term is also used
liberalconspiracy.org/2008/11/21/british-blowjobs-for-british-hookers/

women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article3539987.ece

In answer to references to crime and intimidation etc and other criminal elements. I daresay that ?protection money? might be demanded from some parlours or other illegally operating businesses. The same probably happens in other industries. Independent escorts operate legally hence there is far less room for extortion or blackmail etc. I have not encountered any criminal element in my life and find the insinuation a little tiresome and simplistic. I would know as much about gangs threatening prostitutes as anyone else relying on media headlines. The majority of escorts have no ?pimps? ? they are self employed and operate a legal business. Any attempts of trying to control a prostitute so while our occupation is legal gives us at least the possibility to contact the police and take steps to protect ourselves.

If you looked at the prostitution industry as a pie chart (for those that love statistics) voluntary sex workers be it independent escorts, agency ladies or parlour workers form the vast majority. The effects and reality of street work are simply different to the reality of most of our working life. Same goes for sex migrant workers. There are underlying issues of education, economic disadvantages, education etc . Simply suggesting that prostitution has caused the hardship for these women does not address the underlying problems. Doubt that most of my fellow prostitutes deny the sad reality of exploitation that does go on in the sex industry as does it in overall society. We just refute the sweeping statement that we are all forced, exploited and victimised. Our responsibility individually is not higher so than any other fellow global citizen!

However, like many of my colleagues I would like the choice of how I work to remain mine. Rather than spending valuable resources on endless research studies that focus on prostitutes that are victims of society long before ending up in this industry the money should actually be spent on improving access to drug treatment, education, housing, childcare and actually providing some alternatives to earn cash. When laws are proposed instead of listening merely to some strange alliance of religious, patriarchal and feminist pressure groups, we the sex workers like an equal input. It would also be useful to actually realise that the exploitative and unsavoury elements of prostitution are already covered by UK laws. Precious funds should not be diverted but actually address the criminal elements.

I don?t find the discussion amusing ? I am sick and tired of some of the tunnel vision people outside of the industry have who assume that a huge majority of sex workers are exploited or do this job involuntarily. Given that there is a large community of us that meet both online and in real life, I insist that we are a real and sizable force to be reckoned with. I am in close contact to ladies that might charge double, treble or more than I do and those that charge a lot less. We actually respect each other and have no snobbery about our work. My rates do not exclude me from the vast majority of my colleagues ? in fact, if you consider London wages and cost of living etc ? you will find my rates are fairly similar to those across the UK of other sex workers. But I do think that quite a few posters here simply cannot reconcile the idea of sex work per se based on personal attitudes to sex. I totally respect that as I was not ready nor would have considered it myself until I felt mentally and emotionally mature enough. One of the ladies I mentor is now 20 ? I had a knee jerk reaction about such a young age initially but I respect her motives and maturity to make such a decision.

Sorry to snip out such a lot of your post MissHM, but in response to this bit:

"There are underlying issues of education, economic disadvantages, education etc . Simply suggesting that prostitution has caused the hardship for these women does not address the underlying problems."

I don't think anyone here is saying that these underlying issues aren't important. I completely agree with you that they are. That Home Office report says the same: that tackling these disadvantages is fundamental to any effort to prevent young women (and men) from going into prostitution in the first place, and to make it easier for those who are already involved to leave prostitution.

i'm having trouble finding tlc, but no matter - am familiar with the issue and am aware of policies such as that in place at treloar, where disabled teenagers can be supported (physically/ emotionally) to explore in consensual relationships.

as a former academic misshm, do you not wish that the 'considerable chunk' of 'content sex workers' were more visible? from your point of view, is the issue solely one of misrepresentation? or do you see wider ramifications of the availability of this service for women not in the industry?

having spent a fair amount of my working life as a female in the military, (and a fair chunk of it running all-male teams carrying out tasks in various places around the globe), i've seen a fair amount of trade. at the point the guys start paying, i have always taken my leave. as institutionalised chaps, my boys (note motherly phraseology lol) seemed to be able to understand that some women are available for sex (paid for or not), and others aren't. and it had no noticeable ramifications for my authority at work.

but clearly soldiers/ sailors (who i use as an example of a fairly recogniseable group of service users in particular locations) aren't always able to make this distinction (whether somewhere in theatre in the desert, or on the strip in limassol). i am concerned about causation (and also, if i'm honest, complicity).

I don't understand the legalities of it. But presumably most of the young prostitutes do not own the flats in Central London out of which they are working. There are often reports in the papers of the people who own these flats, bigtime madams or pimps, being busted for living off immoral earnings. Isn't there some sort of blurring of the criminal and legal in how the business is run out of these flats?

Madwoman: interesting area of discussion. I have noticed that some people, particularly men, do think of women as objects and property in a way that is bad for women - but this is not the fault of the sex industry. Men think that a woman who is not wearing some kind of badge of ownership is available to them ie that she has no say in the matter. This is, again, down to superstition and the patriarchal culture which treats women as breeding stock.
I do remember being furiously annoyed with an otherwise nice man I was having a bit of a fling with, who kept harping on about how he 'couldn't believe someone hadn't snapped me up long before now.' He couldn't seem to understand that it was my choice to stay single (and couldn't, in fact, quite see the compliment it was to him that I was actually dating him when I hadn't dated anyone for years).

Claig ? I have been on a number of industry boards for a few years with thousands of posts under my suspender belt. Those of us working here in the UK ? do not use the word ?John? in any of the millions of posts I have read. Some of the posts/forums can be read openly ? you can easily check this. Some people who are not actually prostitutes might use the term and/or publishers might edit it as a catchy phrase. I made this point to address both Manda and I being ridiculed about our choice of words.

Anyway, I actually do agree that the discussion might be far more helpful if semantics are put aside for a moment. Despite some hundreds of posts on this thread ? hopefully there is a consensus that exploitation exists and some solution should be found. Sadly, as so often so energy and time is diverted to protecting the rights of voluntary workers against a complete ban on legal sex work. It would be helpful to suspend the constant undermining of a legal and large group of sex workers to focus on the underlying causes of those that are actually in trouble. Part of that would be to acknowledge that many sex workers have made a clear and informed choice to enter the profession. If anything we are keen to eradicate rogue elements of our trade. An analogy would be perhaps let?s say the building trade ? I am trying to say rather than alienate all contractors in order to drive out illegal labour especially by those exploited by gangs that smuggled them into the UK. Stop telling the builders they are all exploited by capitalists. Yes a very simplistic comparison I admit ? I just want to take the moralistic stance towards sex work out of the equation. Respect that many sex workers are happy to have sex with clients. Don?t stigmatise the actual work. Instead focus on those forced to do the job and who have not been allowed to make a choice.

Then also differentiate the subtle nuances of sex workers that have entered the profession voluntarily but due to some desperation, debts or due to some economic flight from an area with little employment opportunities. But still again weigh up the motives. I have met some women from both Eastern European countries or Asia who have voluntary chosen to prostitute themselves. If they had a choice to earn lump sums quickly in another way they would be keen to do so. They often have some target/goal such as for example raising funds to buy a property or business back home. Many work solidly for a few months or couple of years. They might very well suffer from some sort of burnout. It isn?t the sex but it is mentally and physically tiring to meet hundreds of men. But remember the effects of that work stem from a deliberate decision to see as many clients as possible in a short period. Any high intensity mentally demanding job probably would result in a similar toll on mind and body. Ladies who see escorting as a long term profession tend to pace themselves to allow for their bodies and mind to rest. I do not accept all booking requests because I avoid unsuitable clients and also to keep my mental and physical health. The key here is that a voluntary sex worker will have the opportunity to vet their customers and also pace themselves.

Honestly, I have no ready-made solution for those exploited and for those trying to raise capital by using high volume work short term. Perhaps especially some forms of more flexible and ethical investment could be an answer. Aside from escorting I am going back to arts/design roots ? I am currently exploring global coop schemes to for example produce clothing. I have seen some Latin American scheme where for example street prostitutes on pretty poor incomes had a chance to acquire fashion skills and produced a fashion range. I don?t want to enter some debate how stereotypical it is to opt for training that taught how to sew, tailor etc. But that is what those ladies felt passionate about. I also do not want to assume that every woman wants to quit prostitution ? I am however interested in schemes that allow an alternative to prostitution out of desperate poverty.

Again I am aware and sorry I wrote another novel ? laugh if you like and label it as boring. I feel passionate about the subject and am genuinely keen to tackle exploitation. But I just feel more sensitivity and respect needs to be shown. First of all do not assume that everyone actually has a problem with sex work ? give non-judgmental support.

"to you there is a huge and insurmountable difference between touching the human body for general therapeutic reasons and touching the human body for sexual reasons. This is not the same for everyone."

SGB - there is, I am happy to admit that. It may not be the same for everyone, but I think that most people would recognise the difference, hence it is socially and culturally a completely different issue to see, say, a physio compared to a prostitute.

MissHM - I am glad that you feel you can come on here and share your experience. I think your voice is a valuable one in this debate. However, I do not think that your views are necessarily representative and it is just one (very privileged) perspective. I think that the research is just as important as it gives voice to other prostitutes, which I'm sure you'd want to hear too. I would be interested in seeing the pie chart you refer to. Is it online? As for being mentally and emotionally mature enough, I think that is an unnecessary and demeaning remark which doesn't help the discussion.

BTW I think your knee jerk reaction about helping a 20yr old into the industry was probably a good one.

Long maybe, but not boring MissHM

Just marking my place so I can come back later.

Oh, final word on the 'john' thing: I only used that word because it was the word used by the author of the article I was referring to.

In response to madwomanintheattic ? I am highly visible and so are many many of my colleagues. We participate on industry forums and all sorts of debates and organisations with our working identity clearly linked to our profiles. Many of the forums are open to be read without having to register. We have websites and blogs and they are linked among each other (including to Manda and a few ladies from here) and even to outside groups. My blog has been linked to by a few feminist bloggers. I am not claiming that they might agree with me but found it interesting enough to raise awareness to my ramblings.

Now as we are participating in forums usually with our profiles showing websites, emails and phone numbers so we are sadly taking the risks of becoming the target of some crack pots. Given the vitriol by an albeit small number of posters, we often need to weigh up the chance to raise awareness and facing vindictive people who try to sabotage our work and who contact us with a view to attack us. Ironically, it isn?t clients a lot of us worry about but fanatics from all sorts of backgrounds. Ridicule and vitriol as shown by a small number of posters here is the tip if the iceberg of the kind of nutters that are not merely content at hissing us that we are ?fuck holes?

My site and blog are actually a major marketing tool that attracts the ?thinking? client who wants to ethically ?punt?. They want to enjoy the service I am happy to offer but are also keen to meet someone who is not merely a ?fuck hole? but connect with me as an entire person. I am sure that many people will sneer at this and disbelieve it but this is not an isolated modus operandi.

PS: This is the link to TLC www.tlc-trust.org.uk/forum/

claig - I disagree with you about the patriarchy thing, but I'm finding it really interesting reflecting on what you said about economics pushing high-end prostitution into mainstream media. I think you raise a really important point.

@ FrankFrankly ? I wonder if you misunderstood my comment about being mentally and emotionally mature enough? I was referring to myself with regards to embarking on a ?career? in escorting. I personally would not have been emotionally and mentally ready for this work until my late thirties. However, that does not mean that other women would feel the same or would need to wait until that age. Does that make sense to you in this context? I really cannot without trying to be contrary see how this comment could in any way be read as demeaning and unhelpful in the context of this discussion.

Again and this not meant in an aggressive or flippant manner ? would it not be better to actually check out some industry forums and perhaps get a feel for the number of women who work in the same way than me than producing statistics and a pie chart. Surely those can be misread and misquoted by both camps. Why not actually instead do some basic research to get an idea yourself?

"But I do think that quite a few posters here simply cannot reconcile the idea of sex work per se based on personal attitudes to sex. I totally respect that as I was not ready nor would have considered it myself until I felt mentally and emotionally mature enough."

MHM - that is quite clear that you are implying that "quite a few posters on here" are not as developed as you/mentally and emotionally mature enough to consider sex work a viable choice (as you do).

Concerning research... looking round forums as you suggest is not a great way of doing any kind of independent research. Unless I was going to contact posters, check their legitimacy/stories, put together a decent methodology to assess and quantify what I'm finding out, etc, all I end up with is hearsay. Statistics and pie charts can be misquoted, but good thorough research stands up to scrutiny and offers a substantial contribution to the debate. I'm not happy to simply listen to (a) those I stumble across or (b) those that shout the loudest, in any debate.

Disability is an emotive subject and again I doubt there is a universal way of dealing with sexuality for parents and carers. When someone is for example physically relying on others to facilitate their sex life then carers need to respect and show tolerance to the wishes of the disabled regardless to how they feel politically about prostitution.

I deliberately introduced the notion of disabled clients as it is far less easy to label them as exploiters. That said ? I do not believe anyone has an automatic right to sex and that by that motion also does not have a right to my services. I do not offer discounts to disabled clients, students or anyone. I neither discriminate nor favour anyone?s right to access to my services.

Personally, I need to look at booking requests by those with for example learning disabilities and appraise each case individually. I personally do not accept bookings from those that I believe do not have the mental maturity to deal with a paid encounter. I do not want to cause a situation where a client cannot clearly appreciate the concept of time for money. I do have a few clients with Asberger. I also have clients that are blind or paralysed. I do not patronise them but make allowances for adequate time for perhaps physically accessing my place.