Barring certain reproductive bits, men and women are basically the same. Discuss.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I know we've touched on this on other threads, but I was hoping to troublemake start a discussion on this specific issue. So often I've heard people say "of course wanting equality does not mean we think women and men are the same. We cherish and celebrate the differences between them" and the like.

Well, what are the differences then?

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that men and women are fundamentally pretty much the same, squashy bits aside.

What do you reckon?

I think men and women are fundementally poles apart. (The following are all generalisations obviously)

To start with, men are more combative and competitive.

Men are far more single-minded and unable to do more than one thing at a time.

They are physically stronger.

Women have the ability to deal with pain much better.

Men can be aroused just by the look of someone, whereas women need more than that.

I think in terms of what men and women need we are basically the same - we all want love, to be wanted and needed and to be happy.

I have always been a feminist; I feel very strongly about having equality of opportunity and that there should be no discrimination, but the two sexes are different and those differences should be celebrated.

I think a lot of the things you described Surprise, are socially constructed.

I believe there are differences between men and women but this is often used as an excuse to discriminate in some way.

Differences I can think of....
I have seen brain scans which show the activated areas when tasks are carried out and men on average have like, twice as many areas activate than women during tasks requiring skills in spatial awareness. Meaning, they have more allocated brain to attempt spatial awareness tasks. I believe this may partly explain why there are less female pilots than male, however, society is also to blame for discouraging girls to excel in topics that are considered male. Also, it could be that brains have evolved this way in a "use it or lose it" kind of process, little boys given challenging toys will develop more tools by which to go about solving them than girls who have been given dolls and dolls houses.

Sport, I think is another area where men and women differ. However, it is easy to get into a debate about the reality of gender divisions as highlighted by the recent investigation into Caster Semenya's gender proved she was in fact intersex, living her life as a woman and whatcha gonna do about it?

I'm very much a live and let live kind of person and if someone wants to live as a man or woman when society wants to pidgeon hole them another way based on the appearance of their genitals, then that's society's problem, not the individual and it kind of makes a mockery of the arbitrary, binary gender assumptions forced upon people in things as trivial as sport.

I think it woudl be difficult to make comparisons 'barring reproductive bits' though as they do affect everything, from walking and sitting to hormones affecting the way you react to things.

I was just trying to avoid the whole "but men have willies and we have boobies hur hur" conversation (why I don't know ) but feel free to elaborate, I'd love to know more about it really.

It's all a continum imo - in some areas the trend is for men as a whole to have some characteristics more commonly, and in some for women. Untangling what is nature and what is nurture/soceital expectation shaping is also difficult.

I think there are a lot of differences but I don't think Surprise's are all right. I cannot multi task. Many many women can't.
I don't think there's evidence that women cope with pain better and legions of women are aroused by the look of men. Some women are very competitive too. I want to be, nay say I am, the best at what I do in the UK.

But books like the Female Brain are fascinating and I am certain much of that science is right. It looks at how women change in their 50s too which can be really nice new era for you as hormones which make you smooth the water go and you can go forth and found businesses and achieve lots and may be not tolerate bad things at home.

But generalisation about men and women are often peddled out because of some misogynist agenda so although I would never have free debate stifled on the topic we need to be careful what we believe as gospel truth and what just suits those who would like to keep women at home and down and in the kitchen. Nothing stops a man cleaning a lavatory or holding a crying baby for 4 hours between 2 - 6am.

I agree - I think a lot of 'oh, women are better at..' statements are used as excuses for men not to do things.

And some women simper and say they can't read maps, when they have just never been taught to do so - but use gender as an excuse for not having a go at things

My DP most assuredly cannot read maps and I can, so it is irksome to be told repeaatedly by his brother who reads a lot of books about this that my spatial awareness is crap because I'm a laaaady.

Does anyone else often find themselves having conversations like this?

Some bloke: "It's been scientifically proven that women can't do xyz"
Me: "But I can do xyz, and do it perfectly well, you've seen me do it"
SB: "Yeah but most women can't do xyz"
Me: "like who? your sister? your mum? your girlfriend? they are pretty good at it too AFAIK, aren't they?"
SB: "Well...yeah. But most women can't..." etc etc etc

It is infuriating and frankly bizarre that they are willing to fly in the face of all their personal experience because of some bullshitty book.

Oh it's bollocks isn't it (says my intuition, but considering my knowledge of the brain = almost zero the claim may not stand up to scrutiny, and anyway I'm only marking my place on this thread so I don't lose it)

I was reading a blog post about 'neurosexism' yesterday. It's here

I can't see any reason why men and women should be hugely different. There is no reason to believe that in the period in which modern humans evolved, men and women had greatly divergent roles, so why would we evolve to be very different?

I think that there are very great cultural differences between masculine and feminine culture, and while we should all aim to be people first rather than men and women - that doesn't mean we should reject all elements of feminine culture (although neither should we force feminine stereotypes on people).

It is rather like if you happen to be a Hindu or a Buddhist - it isn't in your genes but that doesn't mean that everything about Hinduism should be rejected, just because it isn't inevitable or natural.

Well Men and women are different due to hormone levels. Men tend to have more testosterone and less oestrogen and vice versa. Thing is, we all have Both of those hormones and the differences in hormone levels are more on a continuum than polarised.

It may be arbitrary to have such an absolute definition as 'woman' and 'man' as the incidence of intersex births is far higher than we generally realise as at birth, doctors and parents mutilate adjust the appearance of babies to make them conform to a gender stereotype, rather than have them grow up ambiguously.

It's not as simple as looking to DNA. Some people have XXY genetic make up for example, some are XO and some have the XX or XY chromosomes but look like the opposite sex due to a suppression of the hormone that usually develops the corresponding genitals and reproductive systems.

There are loads of different 'syndromes' that can occur, they are just 'corrected' by doctors who think they know best.
www.sonoworld.com/ArticleDetails/Intersex_Syndrome.aspx?ModuleCategoryId=173

Same species yep.

Would prefer the company of elephants, birds or a nice soft dog at times.

Doesn't that say a lot about my current mood ?!

Seriously, when you watch larger primates and mammals the females and males basically want the same things as we do.

Power, territory, food and sex and safety for ourselves and loved ones.

In no particular order.

A nice soft dog, I have two of those WowOoo and they certainly do make a lovely break from humans sometimes.

Interesting from the evo perspectice MillyR, you're right of course. And as i pointed out on another thread I get v tired of hearing that women are "more social" because we all went out gathering berries together while the men hunted. Er, given that there were no guns, trapping and killing animals by hand would have required a lot more communication between people, it's a real team effort.

Read a brilliant blog post somewhere that said even if we take the women=better social skills and communication skills thing as read, by that logic all the top lawyers, politicians, psychiatrists, trades union leaders etc etc etc should be women. Why aren't they then?

We need monkeytrousers on this thread: is she still on mn?

I think there are a few differences between the average man and the average woman, even leaving aside the physical ones. It's a bit silly to claim we are exactly the same save for having different dangly bits.

However, first, a lot of these other differences are socially induced/exaggerated. Second, although the differences may be true for the average man/woman, they won't be true for all men/women. So it's very very dangerous to make generalisations - that is how you end up with boys being told to be engineers while girls get told to be nurses, which is fine for some, but not so good for the boys who want to be nurses or the girls who want to be engineers.

Ultimately, there are many more similarities than differences.

Xenia, off point I know but I have to ask what you do..? if you don't think it too personal. Only you've mentioned a few times that you are the best and succesful women truely inspire me and I'm intrigued!!!!

I see a lot of people saying things like "teh majority of women like " but I never see anyone saying what this majority is, 51% or 99%.

I think that while on average there may be differences, as individuals both men and women are usually a mixture of both "male" and "female" traits.

And I think socialisation is incredibly strong.

I would like to have things set up so that people can play to their strengths wihtout being constrained by stereotyping.

I would also agree that the sexes are far more similar than they are (averagely) different.

I also suspect that how a person is themselves affects their viewpoint on this? I have a very "male" brain apparently, which is maybe why I feel so strongly that we are not that different and that stereotypes are ludicrous. If I was more "female" brained would I be more inclined to take the view that there are fundamental differences?

can i recommend "the daughters of egalia" to you all, it is about a topsy turvy world where the men (or menwim) are in dresses and in the home and the wim are in work and in parliament. It has some great discussion where the nuturing and passivity of the menwim is rationalised by biology. The upshoot is that the gender that has the power will develop different traits

Sounds like one for the MN feminist book club!

[I don't want to say what I do as I seem to get identified wherever I go but I think I'm good at it. I was talking to the children last night about how if you're told you're good at something you often then play to that strength and get good at it - teachers can have such an effect. If you thnk you're good at X you do better at it. I'm not saying positive thinking can raise your IQ from 80 - 150 but it probably does help a bit.]

I do think parents have a part to play. Encourage girls to be physical, do sport. Don't buy little girls stupid high heels and make up. Perhaps even b uy them the femininst books ours had however silly those might seem showing girls doing boy things. I doubt they had as much a material effect on my daughters as the non sexist stance of their parents but it all helps.

I think there are some real differences between the average man and the average women,but a vast overlap between men and women in real life,and was going to say more but ImSoNotTelling has already said it better!

"of course wanting equality does not mean we think women and men are the same. We cherish and celebrate the differences between them"

The minute I hear a statement like this,I feel it is leading on to restricting some people,probably women,from doing what they would like to do - but I may just be paranoid! But now I have typed this I realise that it may annoy me because those womanly qualities being cherished and celebrated are qualities I don't have(or feel I don't have).

Yes,Elephants,I end up having that sort of conversation too! (and it reminds me of the conversation I had with DS when he was about 5,and we'd been to the doctor,and he seemed totally incapable of grasping that she was a doctor,not a nurse - even though at that point nearly all the doctors he had seen were women...I had expected that this would have sorted itself out by adulthood though!)

"of course wanting equality does not mean we think women and men are the same. We cherish and celebrate the differences between them" and the like.

I'm one of the people who has said this recently, and while I wasn't very eloquent on the subject I think my basic view is that the biggest fundamental difference, our reproductive systems and the fact that women were designed to do the majority of the infant rearing, has a massive effect on each sex.

It's very late for me (pregnancy insomnia) so I'm not thinking very clearly but offhand I think the fact that woman have babies affect how we think about sex, how we feel about our bodies, how we are at work in a way that it doesn't affect men. I also think that the act of sexual intercourse being much more intrusive for women affects how we view sex and surrounding affection.

I think in these ways biology really does have a part to play in the differences between men and woman.

Personality types and traits universal across both sexes. I'm sure there are neurological differences between men and woman, due to levels of hormones which will have an affect on behaviours, but obviously that isn't cut and dried, and there is a continuum. It would also be interesting to investigate how much neurological differences between the sexes can be accounted for by upbringing and socialisation.

I would also be interested to know why women have a greater propensity to cry than men (again, not universal, but you can't deny that on the whole [and in only in my Western experience] woman are more likely to cry publicly than men). I wonder if there is a biological reason?

In general terms, I don't think men and women are basically the same because we are each underpinned by different levels of different hormones. However, I think both men and women have very similar desires in wanting to find a partner, reproduce, etc. It's a tricky OP to answer because we are apparently genetically identical to our remote ancestors, yet our environment is now very sophisticated with 'rules' about how each sex should look, think and behave....but did such gender rules exist millennia ago?

bumper: 'I would also be interested to know why women have a greater propensity to cry than men'

Some information here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_emotion

My mother said one of the fundamental differences between men and women is the ability (or lack of) to find things in a cupboard.
She has read somewhere that men tend to look at a fixed point straight ahead, whereas women sweep the horizon.
Apparently this is because men are hunter gatherers chasing food, and women have to watch the surroundings - children, homestead etc.
I did laugh when she told me, but I occasionally do a random experiment where I ask people to find something at the BACK of the cupboard. Turns out my mother is mostly correct.