Barring certain reproductive bits, men and women are basically the same. Discuss.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I know we've touched on this on other threads, but I was hoping to troublemake start a discussion on this specific issue. So often I've heard people say "of course wanting equality does not mean we think women and men are the same. We cherish and celebrate the differences between them" and the like.

Well, what are the differences then?

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that men and women are fundamentally pretty much the same, squashy bits aside.

What do you reckon?

bumperlicious your view also seems to tie in with what I said earlier (sorry to quote myself but anyway)

"I also suspect that how a person is themselves affects their viewpoint on this? I have a very "male" brain apparently, which is maybe why I feel so strongly that we are not that different and that stereotypes are ludicrous. If I was more "female" brained would I be more inclined to take the view that there are fundamental differences? "

So with the crying thing, when people say that women are more likely to cry in public than men, that resonates for you. As it's something you do, it is obvious to you that it's true. And then when people say that it's socialisation or that many women don't do it, maybe you feel that people are trying to deny women their true nature, which is wrong, and that there is maybe a sense that it is somehow an undesirable thing to do.

While as someone who doesn't cry in public, and is female, I see the assertion that it is a biological/hormonal norm as an affront to me as a (fairly) normal woman.

We are both offended and thus put in opposition, because we both want the way that we are to be validated.

There must be a middle ground where variations in behaviour are accepted without question, and without anyone feeling that their personality is under attack IYSWIM.

I see what you are saying ISNT (and apologies if what I said offended you).

I'm afraid I am too pregnancy befuddled to argue with you eloquently (and I'm not even sure I need to argue with you as I don't disagree with you - I wish my opinions were more formed on this subject I seem to make it up if I go along!). I think I do disagree with the assertion that we are not really all that different. I think we are, in a lot of ways, but it is also useful to see gender on a continuum, just as both sexes have varying levels of the hormone testosterone (predominant in males) and oestrogen (predominant in females) (excuse the complete pop psychology here - I'm a long way from my neuroscience degree so these assertions aren't based on the peer reviewed research we are so fond of on MN! Just on my memory).

If we accept the above to be true, then is it unreasonable to suggest that the traits associated with the 'male' hormone to be more masculine traits, and the female ones to be more feminine? Of course I accept your point that there are varying levels and people shouldn't be pigeon-holed, especially when these traits and their gender assignment are regarded pejoratively.

I'm not sure I have a point here . Just that I do think men and woman are fundamentally different. Doesn't mean they don't share the same traits.

Incidentally DH told me that I think like a man the other day, as I was asking how temporary cats eyes were put on the ground, I assumed it was mechanically as they were so uniform. I was quite offended and told him exactly why!

Incidentally (again!) I do have a DH who has a wide range of both 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits. Case in point: when I was on early maternity leave I got very into Newlyweds: Nick and Jessica. DH would sneer at me and pretend not to watch. His cover was blown when one day, apropos of nothing, he said to me 'So, did Jessica like the wardrobe Nick made her'. Anyway, we both share care of DD, in fact he is home with her more than I am, and I am the main breadwinner. I just give you this aside to let you know that we don't follow 'traditional' gender roles in this house.

Bumperlicious,if you think men and women are fundamentally different,but share the same traits,exactly how do you think they are fundamentally different?

I've just finished reading "Bluestockings",which is about the development of university education for women,and those first women to go on to uni,and then people did believe that men and women were different,that women were designed for the domestic sphere,that they were incapable of academic study at the levels achieved by male undergraduates,and that attempting to leave the home enviroment and overuse their brains would lead to a wide range of mental and physical problems(and the collapse of civilisation as we know it!)
I do think it's reasonable to assume that certain traits may be associated with oestrogen,and some with testosterone,and there is evidence that men's and women's brains react differently,but I don't think these are fundemental differences.Men on average may be better at manipulating 3D images mentally - that to me isn't a fundamental difference,it's just a difference,like being a bit taller,or a faster runner.

At which point I need to say "what ISNT said " because I do think saying "men are like this and women are like that" leads to discrimination and pigeonholing.But my view is biased by the fact that I'm not a stereotypical woman in many ways,so some of the "what women are like" statements feel like criticism,and personally I feel as different from some women as I do from some men.

It seems that testosterone builds bigger, more muscular bodies, whereas oestrogen does not. Is this a fundamental difference or just a difference, like being a bit taller or a faster runner?

IMO, it's a fundamental difference. I wonder whether the physically stronger sex always assumes a position of dominance? For example, if women had evolved the stronger body, would it be a matriachy??!!

There's no denying that on average men are bigger and stronger than women, of course. And that they have different hormones whizzing around.

The question is, does marinading the brain in the different hormones result in differences in the brains structure, or is the difference in structure from socialisation ie use?

And what about children - do they have very different brains? I have no idea but someone must have done some studies!

Plus what about post-menopause women - when they are no longer awash with oestrogen what does that do - do they change emotionally? Or are their brains "fixed" at how they were when they had all the oestrogen.

Sorry this post is going to be a collection of random thoughts.

I was watching masterchef last night and thought of bumperlicious when two male contestants burst into tears I also wonder if men sob more readily in different cultures - in latin countries and places like that men are a bit more tearful aren't they?

Anyway the problem of course is that "womens" things have traditionally been seen as crappy. crying, gossiping, nurturing and so on. So while society views "womens" traits as rubbish, is it helpful to women to ceebrate these things IYSWIM. In that respect I am very conditioned by society as I sadly realise that the reason I get so shirty when people say "women do this" is because I have bought the idea that those things are rubbish.

And that ties in with the wage disparity stuff as well.

And of course the poor old blokes have to go around pretending they want to sit in the pub and watch the football (as per the "average") when they would rather be with the kids, or at an art gallery, or whatever.

So maybe women need to step back from their socialisations, whether that is them being affronted when things they do are labelled "unfeminine" or whether it is them being affronted when they think people are trying to deny them their femininity. And then all work together to actually change some stuff.

So I should not react against the suggestion that I might enjoy shoe shopping quite so strongly, and buperlicious can feel happy that she is interested in how they put the cats eyes in the road, safe in her security that this does not make her any less of a "feminine" woman. IYSWIM.

Is anyone else really cheeful that although loads of the women on this topic would see this as really basic stuff, we are able to talk about it as if it's all new and exciting? Which it is for me

I love this topic!

Sorry not meaning that we're all a bit dim or something, but that i know that some of the women on here have studied this stuff for years, while I'm just thinking about a lot of it properly for the first time really.

Or maybe some of you have studied it for years... um...

I hope you know what I mean

I've been brooding on this overnight,and I think I may possibly have come to the conclusion that there are some fundamental differences but practically they don't matter,and shouldn't affect how we live our lives,because for that you should look at the individual! (I remembered that my "men and women are not significantly different" views were a bit shaken by having DD and then DS!)

I think it is good,ISNT,but I'm not sure I have the mental stamina...(nice hole,by the way )

But I still wonder how you can celebrate differences when those differences do not exist in a predictable consistent way....

Oooh look at this

I believe that women like chocolate more than men as their brains have a chocolate centre filled with bunnies and kittens...

Are those your shortbread fingers,or are they some MN April Fool thing???

My chocolate centre is not filled with bunnies and kittens,they would spoil the chocolate...my chocolate centre has a rottweiler to deter intruders!

It is a bit girly to get excited over appearance of bunnies on the boards isn't it

Perhaps now is the time to seek out some male MNetters find out exactly how different they are - maybe they are excited about the bunnies too...

Must go and do some work!

Pogles, what I meant was I do believe we are fundamentally different, but there are some ways in which woman can be the same. Personality traits in their most basic definition are common across both sexes. Thinking they are different doesn't mean I don't think they are the same in other ways.

I just think our biology has a lot to answer for. I mentioned earlier that I think the way humans have sex affect the way we think about it. It is much more intrusive for woman, potentially more painful, and not quite as easy (sweeping generalisation) to be aroused/achieve orgasm.

As for what ISNT said, I agree, I kind of like these discussions where we can just reason it out. I do think there is a place for research, and a wider knowledge of different societies may affect your argument, but sometimes I just like thinking things through in my own head. Some of the more well read posters make me feel a bit intimidated sometimes.

It's not that I'm stupid either, I have 2 research based degrees, just not in this area! I'm a nouveaux feminist!

The crying thing was just an example really, not even sure it is a good one, as like another poster said there are lots of cultural variations.

I wonder if any attempts (back in the early 1900s when you could do proper psychological experiments!) have been made to try and raise children in a way that they have no gender socialisation at all.

I think when I originally talked about celebrating differences the biggest difference I was thinking about was having babies. I fee disadvantaged in lots of ways through my being the sex who does the child baring. I am currently feeling very guilty as I have just had a week off sick (pregnancy insomnia leading me to virtual breaking point of sanity) but it is causing me complete internal conflict. Part of me feels bad at work, I don't want to be seen as the pathetic pregnant woman, don't want to rock the boat and give ammunition to people who don't think child baring woman should be employed. But the other part of me thinks 'fuck them, I have dragged my arse into work every day for the past 2.5 months despite feeling sick all day every, tired due to not sleeping properly, very stressful early bleeding.', and sod this not being treated differently while pregnant and pregnancy is not an illness. Is it not an illness to want to throw up all day for 2.5 months, is it not an illness to not have had a full nights sleep for that long. I am growing a person inside me. Damn right I want to be treated differently. I want a fucking medal!

Ooops, that was a bit ranty. But do you see my point. This is a fundamental difference between men and women, and it does have an effect on the way you behave and the way you are treated.

Don't get me started on the twats who say 'well, it's your choice to have children' because once they have perfected male insemination and gestation DH will be the first in line!

Ah well I think that women who are pregnant should be offered seats and taken care of generally, and that allowances should be made if they are feeling shitty.

There are instances where people who are not pregnant have allowances made for them and so why should pregnant women be exempt? They are doing something pretty important after all.

I also go completely bananas when I'm pregnant which I assume is something that doesn't happen to men!

So yes I totally agree there are differences there.

However for instance when looking at children the whole reproductive thing is miles off in the future, and yet people really pigeonhole little girls and little boys. That is the thing that makes me really annoyed, and of course will affect that childs outlook for the rest of their lives.

Poor you,Bumperlicious - it does sound as if you are having a rough time.Morning sickness is totally awful.(I did not enjoy being pregnant!)

I think that in the rush to show our biology is irrelevant,we have minimised the impact pregnancy can have - not everyone is going to be able to work until they go into labour and return to work in 2 weeks(and while expecting all women to take to their beds once a month is ridiculous,menstruation and hormonal changes do have a significant impact on some people,don't they? But does the fact that only women suffer from them make them different in kind from,say,asthma or any other recurrent health problem?)

I do think if society want to continue it needs to accept that someone is going to have to have the children ,and support them while they do it.

I still don't think that it is a difference that draws a line between all men and all women,though!

AFAIK, a male foetus experiences a testosterone surge approx. 7wks after conception, which effectively soaks the brain and alters its structure. The surge also causes the external genitals to differentiate. (Incidentally, this is why males have nipples because until 7wks after conception, the foetus is still effectively female). So, the differences in brain structure between boys and girls leads to differences in learning needs.

I often wonder if transsexuals notice a change in learning style after their gender assignment is complete, i.e. does their emotional perception of the world change at all (in line with their new hormonal situation)?

'Women's things' being seen as crappy, crying, nurturing, etc is surely just a way of reducing and ridiculing such things?!

that should be 'gender reassignment'

Surely the testosterone surge triggers the physical differences - do boy newborns and girl newborns have fundamentally different brains at birth?

Women with "male" brains are supposed to have been exposed to higher levels of testosterone in utero,though I can't remember the exact details.Presumably there is an equivalent hormonal state which produces a man with more "female" brain function.

When it is said that women have "male" brains, do people mean that the structure is like that of the otehr sex, or do they mean that the perso is good at things that typically (stereotypically?) the other sex is good at?

The test I did was on the BBC I will try to find it. My result was the same as the average for men who took it, DH came out in the middle.

If there are real structural differences between men and women at birth, what does that mean for real life? And where does it leave most people, who have a mix of strengths that are "both" genders.

it is interesting that i seem to react very badly to the suggestion that there is an inherent difference in brain structure...

Yes,you've got me there,this bit of info was from a valid source,but one I can't remember,and a while ago so this is the only bit of detail that has stuck.And no,I cannot remember if it was brain structure or abilities -or both .

I shouldn't have posted it,should I? Sorry...

But the levels of testosterone bit had been found,dittany,in a way that convinced me at the time(I was capable of coherent thought and remembering detail once...)

I was using "male brain" as shorthand though - neither I nor the researchers meant "brain belonging to the other sex".

Hormones drive behaviour and mood - as can be seen when hormone therapy is used. So we are not the same.

brain sex test thing