"Misandry is the root of all trans fear. Men’s fear of other men. Women’s fear of all men."

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1xbcui7/the_framing_of_the_antitrans_movement_as/

Get popcorn.

Why do you believe some males should be allowed into female spaces? That’s the question? Why do you believe women should not have single sex spaces?

I agree with the law in that if there's no justification (as in meeting the special exemptions criteria) for discrimination in a particular context then spaces should be shared.

That’s great. So all spaces not designated single sex should be shared. I agree. And for single sex spaces, they are on a basis of sex not some nebulous “gender identity”.

So you are saying that neither men nor women can have the right to single sex groups? Why not? Some women, and some men, want to meet only with members of their own sex. There are many unisex places and groups where everyone is welcome. Why are you so keen for men to butt in where they are not wanted? What do you get out of it?
In places where women are vulnerable, most of us don't want men at all, however they identify, and unfortunately for you, that has been clarified in law. Are you saying men have the right to ignore this?

So you are saying that neither men nor women can have the right to single sex groups? Why not?

I never said that. On the contrary I made it clear that if the legal exemption criteria is met single sex spaces are justified.

The legal exemption criteria being sex. So therefore no one of the opposite sex should be accessing the spaces of the other sex apart from in the course of their employment for example cleaners or emergency response services responding to an incident. Gotcha.

And when is it justified for a man to be on say a women's ward? Or go in the female toilets? What exactly are those criteria?
And what if women (or men) just want a single sex group? Should that be banned, even though there are plenty of places where both men and women are welcome?

Worth repeating, every word.

If only they would pause, and calm down, and let the rage against women die away.

And when is it justified for a man to be on say a women's ward? Or go in the female toilets? What exactly are those criteria?

As I said being in a state of undress is considered one of the justifiable reasons for special exemption so its depends if the context calls for it.

And what if women (or men) just want a single sex group? Should that be banned, even though there are plenty of places where both men and women are welcome?

I imagine it depends whether its a social group or a service. I doubt it applies to social groups but services available to the public are a different matter.

Exactly, so that last one is just some thoughtless, bog standard v1.0 misogynistic man, not a TIM even. He has no fucking idea.

It’s this, isn’t it? We’re ordered to believe men, no matter what bizarre thing they are claiming. No matter how dangerous it might be to us. We must obey their wishes.

But services are covered by the equality act in uk so therefore, as the SC has designated for the purposes of the EA woman is a biological female, services can restrict woman only services to females only. If they want to make a service mixed sex, they cannot call it women’s and must allow any member of either sex who meets any other of their joining criteria to use that service. So again, how will making a service mixed sex benefit those males who say they cannot use male services? Any male would be able to use that service.

The difference I guess is this pretence, that some people adhere to and most people don’t, that a group of men are somehow “women”, otherwise there would be zero logical reason for such a space to exist that didn’t also include some men who don’t identify as women.

Yes. And men like Mr “middle aged cis male” as if he’s fucking proud of his amazing progressiveness, the dickhead, have never considered what actual women might think about it. They don’t think women’s feelings are relevant.

So what exactly are you arguing for?

So again, how will making a service mixed sex benefit those males who say they cannot use male services? Any male would be able to use that service.

Depends on the individual I don't speak for all trans people. Rights wise I believe the concern is a privacy one for trans (the right not to be outed).

There aren't any justifiable reasons why all males should be included because there's no disadvantage to them which anti discrimination law demands.

I don’t get people who say gender doesn’t exist.

Gender is a word developed by feminists in the 70s to describe the behaviours commonly associated with each sex. Like wearing a dress, or painting your nails, are feminine behaviours. But you don’t have to be a woman to do them (and doing them doesn’t make you a woman).

Feminists wanted the term “gender” back then because they wanted a way of talking about how women weren’t limited to some of the negative (patriarchal) stereotypes about women. We are not innately obsessed with being pretty, not innately less intelligent or capable, not only suitable for domestic work and childbearing etc - the word “gender” allowed feminists to talk about how masculinity and femininity are shaped by culture. It allowed them to point out that women have a lot of potential to be more than feminine stereotypes.

So while you can’t change sex, you specifically can perform the gendered behaviours associated with with the opposite sex. And obviously sometimes the line between nature (biology) and culture (gender) is unclear.

So women have had to go from arguing that they are not limited to their biological function, to now arguing that their experiences in the world are in fact shaped by their biology (and how they are treated because of their biology).

In other words, women just cannot catch a break.

I still think gender is a useful term though. Men can dress as women all they like: that’s what the word gender makes visible. They are just doing behaviours commonly associated with women.

I'm simply making the point that sex on its own isn't a qualifier for single sex spaces rather context is.

Most “trans people” can be clocked from space so there’s zero “privacy concerns” about them being “outed” as the opposite sex. In the hearing for the failed challenge by the GLP that argument was thrown out by the judge. It’s not a reason to discriminate against or harass women and girls. It’s not discrimination against a man to say he can’t use a space that’s for women only.

And in what context do you believe men can use women's spaces?

Well there is. Either you allow all males in or you are discriminating against those who do not claim a gender identity. You can’t say a service is mixed sex but exclude some members of one sex. What criteria would you be using? Gender identity? Then you would need to prove a definition of gender identity that would be coherent and able to be applied consistently.

When people say “gender doesn’t exist” they don’t mean as an external social construct IMO. They mean as an innate property like sexist people like trans rights activists, tradwives, MRAs, pick up artists etc claim.

Most “trans people” can be clocked from space so there’s zero “privacy concerns” about them being “outed” as the opposite sex.

You have no meaningful evidence to prove that other than anecdotal instances.

Any context where there's no justifiable exemption.

But then no transperson has any evidence they “pass” apart from anecdotal instances either….

But, by definition, sex alone is the only qualifier for a single-sex space! It has to be. That’s the whole point.