What can the NHS do if trans-identified patients refuse wards for their sex?

[Whatchamacallitt]

I've been looking at Transgender Reddit. Mostly it's just people comparing single sex wards to the Holocaust. But I found this thread particularly interesting.

Clearly they have every intention of being as obstructive and difficult for staff as possible by refusing to be placed on a ward for their sex whilst still demanding medical treatment.

Does anyone know what the legal situation would be for the hospital under these circumstances? Could they discharge the patient for refusing suitable accommodation or would their ill health be the priority? Would they allocate a much needed side room to the trans-identified patient to placate their temper tantrum?

Tantrum, right. Interesting you don't characterise a cis woman objecting to being next to men as having a 'tantrum'.

Of course not...

• Women in a women's ward objecting to men there = natural and proper objection.
• Men ('trans woman') objecting to not being put in a woman's ward where he has no right to be there, no reason to be there, is not a woman, and is destroying the privacy of the women already there = tantrum

Oh - by the way, there is no such thing as a cis woman - it is just woman and men don't count!

I think there's a significant difference between a patient who is confused, delirious or drunk being taken where they need to go, and an articulate, entirely compos mentis and distressed man with gender identity expressing that he is not prepared to enter the men's single sex space. I also can't imagine that a man in that situation would be treated with anything less than care, compassion and kindness - and goodness knows we all know the NHS will bend over backwards for TQ men and treat them much better than they do women. (Who absolutely have been abusively treated by policy requirement when a man has been placed on a women's ward.)

It's not helpful to fuel the kind of histrionic nightmare scenarios we're going to see flapped about by activists as a reason why these men should be permitted to use women's single sex spaces. I can see that a man, provided with all the possible options available in that moment and the man's particular health circumstances, might decide he prefers to be discharged than to accept them. And that would be his choice. The onus is going to be on the NHS as to how they are going to manage such patients in these situations. I wouldn't expect a woman to feel ok in a mixed sex space with screens or curtains if she said she didn't. I know there's never any reciprocity of care or consideration for women, but I'm not a monster and I'm not going to sadistically hope a distressed man is treated as badly as this political movement likes to treat women. Regardless of how bloody cross I am with it.

My husband recently had a stroke. He was rushed into surgery immeduatelt then afterwards taken to a high dependency ward. He was no way going to be discharged. He was wheeled off, still recovering from the op. Most people who get to a ward are really ill - for most ops you just go home afterwards.

Btw, when I think about it, he had a woman in the bed next to him! An elderly Asian lady. Presumably that can't happen now, or maybe there was nowhere else to put her and so clinical need came first.

Where patients are very ill & bed-bound it's normal for the ward to be mixed because there are only a handful of beds e.g. HDU, ITU, CCU. It's more efficient to have a four bed Coronary Care Unit than have a two bed CCU for women & another two bed CCU for men.

Yes this was a HDU but the hospital is one of those with a specialist stroke unit and a lot of wards for post stroke recovery. So I was surprised to see her there.

I'm off today so had a look for Wolverhampton's trans policy pre the new NHS guidance. What a surprise, transIDing people were put on the ward they wanted:

3.30 Admission to single sex accommodation: In line with the Trust’s Same Sex Accommodation Policy (OP81), Trans people will be accommodated according to their gender presentation, unless they specify otherwise.

So whatever happened to this young man, it wasn't that he died because he was refused a bed on a female bay

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/policies_relating_to_transgender_110

mixed wards are common. Very, very common. Men work on women's wards, so they are heavily surveilled. I've been on mixed wards, and visited family on them.

So why are transpeople demanding to be on wards just for women or just for men?

Refuse to treat them I would hope, just like they won't treat a violent shouting patient.

The ones who post on transgender reddit are the most extreme/mentally ill. I'm not sure choosing to die over getting treatment in the place they want is something most trans people would choose.

They are, yes. But a lot of what is written on Reddit is bluster and persecution fantasy - I imagine when it came to it the reality would be different for most of them.

Can someone explain what the problem with having a side room is? I got put in a side room ahead of an induced birth because I had (asymptomatic) Covid at the time, and I was delighted. I would have thought the main problem with giving trans patients a side room would be the number of people who'd start claiming to be trans!

They want to be validated, not “othered”. Agree many people would kill for a side room!

Yes.

And the 'othering' bit is bullshit. Who in any hospital wouldn't prefer a single room?

The issue with a side room is a) there's no women in it, and b) it makes clear that they do not qualify as real women.

But real women get put in side rooms all the time, so that one simply makes no sense.

Its the room with the title and the women in it. The place that can't be entered. The existence of which makes it clear.

I was thinking about this recently as a close friend was in hospital for a week in a female ward and there is zero privacy and if a birth male was brought in it would be really uncomfortable

If they refuse treatment in sex appropriate ward they can refuse and get discharged.

If you’re in A&E you’re not technically admitted so if you refuse treatment you don’t need to be discharged. So provided that accurate notes are kept it’s not the hospital’s problem really.

I was in hospital recently and although slightly different someone demanded a side room because they streamed their entire life online and spent all night creating content at max volume so had to have their own room. Threatened to sue if they self discharged and anything happened, even phoning a solicitor at top volume. They needed to be in hospital for medical reasons and staff did everything to convince them to stay, eventually giving them a side room.
so it felt like temper tantrums are rewarded

None of these people actually cares a damn about any of the other patients, their well-being or their feelings, but oh boy I bet they create if one of the other patients on the ward they are in has loud visitors who upset them by talking inconsiderately.

Some even have a new NHS record and number as their "new sex"

Some even have a new NHS record and number as their "new sex"l!

I imagine the NHS, faced with someone in his forties whose (female) NHS records start in 2017 or 2018, can easily work out what his actual sex is, even if it isn't patent on ordinary visual inspection.

To be fair I don't think the OP of the reddit post was objecting to a side room, she just didn't want to be on a women's ward. Presumably she will find it embarrassing so is objecting. It might have been an idea to think about how radically changing your body might have an impact on your day to day life before doing it.

That's what I'm expecting might happen for trans-identified patients if they make enough of a fuss. Even if some poor end of life patient has to be turfed out to facilitate it.