What can the NHS do if trans-identified patients refuse wards for their sex?

[Whatchamacallitt]

I've been looking at Transgender Reddit. Mostly it's just people comparing single sex wards to the Holocaust. But I found this thread particularly interesting.

Clearly they have every intention of being as obstructive and difficult for staff as possible by refusing to be placed on a ward for their sex whilst still demanding medical treatment.

Does anyone know what the legal situation would be for the hospital under these circumstances? Could they discharge the patient for refusing suitable accommodation or would their ill health be the priority? Would they allocate a much needed side room to the trans-identified patient to placate their temper tantrum?

Where was your concern when I'mSarah couldn't get therapy after being raped because they refused to offer a women's single sex session in addition to the single gender group, the trans groups and the mens group. TW has 3 options, Sarah had none.

For years years who need SSS have had zero options why is this less important than TW having an option but choosing not to use it?

Here you are:

"A tantrum (or temper tantrum) is a sudden, uncontrolled outburst of anger, frustration, or bad temper".

Key Characteristics
Behavior: Involves crying, screaming, shouting, whining, stamping feet, or thrashing around.
Goal-Oriented: Often happens when someone (typically a young child or toddler) does not get their way, cannot express their feelings with words, or wants to obtain a specific item or avoid a task.
Age Range: Most common in toddlers between 1 and 3 years old as a normal part of development, usually decreasing significantly by age 4 or 5.
Adult Tantrums: The term is also used to describe an adult who loses their temper in a noisy, unreasonable, or "childish" manner"

The men demanding access to unconsenting women on hospital wards, in changing rooms and showers etc are having a tantrum. Time for them to grow up, realise that women have rights as well and to accept the law - just as the `NHS, civil service etc are now doing.

HTH.

Ahh yes - the man who died because he had cancer?
Somehow died in 2023 because of a decision made in 2026...

Sad that he died, but impressive that a decision made three years later was to blame...

It is sad to see posts like this designed to confuse and obfuscate the truth... it is a matter of evidence and fact (as highlighted above) that patient assault can come from putting a 'trans woman' (man) into female spaces... I think it is pretty insulting to then blame NHS staff for that attack...

Women die and have inadequate pain relief every day of the bloody week.

As well as the service needs mentioned by MrPDC, there's also the balance of privacy with safety.

Patients are safest in the old-fashioned Nightingale wards where there are always multiple staff present (assuming isolation for contagious conditions). The lack of privacy means no privacy for staff or other patients to commit assault. The constant observation means any deterioration in their condition will be spotted as fast as possible. They are usually happiest in single rooms.

I thought they could go where they wanted? Friend of mine was in for a week after a double mastectomy which she got an infection with. She was next to a (very loud) man who identified as female and told everyone he met the in depth details of his operation. I was appalled he was on the women’s ward but there he was.

I understand the right to self discharge. But it appears they are going along the tack of saying 'I consent to treatment, I don't consent to being placed on a male/female ward'. I don't know legally how the hospital could handle that if the patient was mentally competent but ill enough they couldn't turn them away.

New guidance has just been issued. All patients to be allocated to wards based on sex

Yes that is notable. She said she would prefer to be in a corridor than a female ward. I think it's sad that some women are so mentally ill and plagued by internalised misogyny they would rather the indignity of a corridor than to be placed with other women.

But I still wonder what the hospital could do in this case. It's not a self discharge, she's consenting to medical treatment, but she's not consenting to the appropriate accommodation in a women's ward. I imagine they would give in to her manipulation and try and make a side room free even if other patients had greater need.

There is no ‘cis woman’ it’s just ‘woman’

I think you're undermining the severity of their mental illness and/or entitlement. I can fully believe that critically unwell trans-identified patients would still refuse placement on a ward for their sex. If they state they otherwise consent to treatment, I think it puts the hospital in a tricky position legally.

It's a very different landscape now. Trans-identified patients are no longer entitled to self ID into opposite sex wards. Every instance must be recorded as a breach of single sex space.

I also wondered this - read the thread about it and it just seems so unlikely. If true that someone wasn’t given treatment just because they were male and the only bed available was on a female ward that’s terrible but seems unlikely..

Can someone change their birth certificate? I mean can they enter a hospital ward as a woman if they have all the surgery and a name change? Like a new identity or something?
Just wondering if there’s a way around it for them.

Nope. Not even if they pinky promise they’re really a woman. 😋

Women were told

a) that is not a man, there are no men here (and your rape didn't happen, gaslighting on crack)
b) if you mention your difficulty with a man on this ward we'll refuse you treatment
c) you can put up and shut up, or discharge yourself.

Obviously, that was bloody monstrous and I do not advocate it at all, but hospitals saw no legal issues with refusing women treatment whatsoever. Or forcing their women nurses to undress in front of men.

But men with gender identities were delighted to do this to women who could not cope with mixed sex spaces, and really want to go on doing it. And if we went back to their ideal they would loudly declare no fucks to give for what happened to those women. So it's a bit rich to do all this wailing and garment rending now.

If they'd modelled a bit more compassion and reciprocation and basic humanity to women at the time, possibly women would have a bit more sympathy. But they chose as a group, without exception, to burn that bridge and jumped up and down on the pieces.

Im not sure that it would put them in a tricky position legally.

Let's say that an adult who otherwise consents to treatment wants to be placed on a children's ward and refuses placement on an adult ward. I don't believe that anyone would consider that it would put the hospital in a tricky position legally to insist the patient can only be treated on an adult ward.

I don't see much difference between an adult insisting that they need to be put on a child's ward and a man insisting that they need to be put on a female ward

Would anyone want to be treated by medical professionals who didnt know basic biology?

A certificate and surgery doesnt change biology.

Anyone who wants a particular service - not being placed on a single sex ward or demanding a private room, needs to find other alternatives to the NHS.

Yes they can change their birth certificate. They can also change their NHS number and sex marker. That said, recently the NHS core data standards changed to include a 'sex at birth' marker. Regardless though, their medical transition and transgender status will be apparent in their notes, if it isn't obvious from appearances.

Some people lie. Some people cheat. Some trans people might try to stealth on to the wrong ward but this doesn't mean we should shrug and abandon rules to say they should not. Like all other rules if someone is found breaking them they should face the consequences.

I'm not talking about whether you personally feel compassionate about those who don't want to be on wards for their sex. I certainly don't. I'm talking about the legal position of the hospital for a patient who refuses that placement but consents to medical care.

I think hospitals are used to incredibly unreasonable people making demands. They usually find some way of getting insane people into a suitable bed. If you’re sick enough to need a hospital bed you’re probably sick enough to just want treatment. It’s no skin off the NHS’s nose if you are refusing elective surgery.

The number of people on Reddit saying single rooms would be unsuitable for them as they prefer the company of a bay full of women is Wowzers.

If you read the thread I linked to there is a subtle but important difference between your theoretical situation and what is being attempted.

The OP is a trans-identified woman who does not want to be placed on a women's ward. She is not demanding access to a men's ward, she is simply saying she will not consent to being placed on a women's ward. She otherwise consents to full medical treatment. She said she would consent to corridor care or a side room, or any other form of accommodation outside of a standard women's bay/ward.

If she's sufficiently unwell I think the hospital would have a hard time discharging her against her will. I also don't believe you can physically manhandle a capacitated adult into a ward they have refused. Since there are available options such as leaving her for a longer period in an assessment unit until a side room becomes available, I feel the hospital are placed into a difficult position legally.

I think the most likely eventuality is that hospital bed managers will feel pressured into giving into their manipulation by freeing up a side room wherever they can, even if other patients have a more urgent need for it. I've already read accounts of transplant patients being turfed out of side rooms to accommodate trans-identified patients.

Your TRA colours are showing, hospitals will not placed in a difficult legal position because they'll be following the law.
As for 'Trans' tantrums in the corridor it's not going to work because the health service doesn't have to treat people who are being uncooperative. Your 'trans' IDing female will make whatever choice she makes and the consequences of her choice will be all down to her.