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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ageism often lurks within the ideas and rhetoric of trans activists - Victoria Smith

180 replies

IwantToRetire · 12/10/2026 21:10

... In a recent interview to celebrate 80 years of Woman’s Hour, programme editor Karen Dalziel was quizzed on its handling of the “what is a woman?” question. When asked why the programme didn’t simply reflect the law as clarified by the Supreme Court, she offered a rather convoluted response:

One thing we have to remember here is that you’re on Radio 4. Many of our audience are over sixty. They don’t understand the terminology and part of our role in the preceding years has been to help people understand the terms and what all the different terms mean.

A generous interpretation of this could be that this is about complex legal terminology (who wasn’t an expert in case law when they were in their teens and early twenties? Funny how you forget!). Except Dalziel goes on to say that the Supreme Court judgment has “helped listeners have some clarity about what is meant, but this is moving”. For many people, she argues, it’s “a beginning”:

People said that women couldn’t vote. Other people have different ideas and continue to campaign. We follow the story. ...

Full article https://thecritic.co.uk/you-dont-have-to-be-young-to-understand-gender-identity/

Also at https://archive.is/Ye7A0

OP posts:
BackToLurk · 13/10/2026 08:04

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 13/10/2026 07:45

Again, the meaning of cisgender in broad social usage is an adjective describing a person whose gender identity aligns with the sex they were assigned at birth.

In other words It's a term describing gender not sex.

Is it any wonder the BBC needs to agonisingly correct misinformation for those without access to unbiased sources.

The problem with cisgender is apparent in the definition. If you can’t understand that problem, despite it being explained multiple times across multiple threads, then that’s on you.

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 13/10/2026 08:07

Igmum · 13/10/2026 07:57

Must be a fringe category - it was John Hopkins University (apparently number 9 in the US) leading to that great definition of lesbians as non men attracted to non men.

Not sure why you’re so keen to prevent offence to the trans folx by insisting they get to define their own categories while also being determined that no woman should get to define her own category (and nor should biology) because that’s the job of the trans folx. Do you think that’s progressive? Why do you refuse to listen to all of the posters telling you it’s offensive? Why do you insist we have some magical gender essence when we tell you we really don’t?

Must be a fringe category - it was John Hopkins University (apparently number 9 in the US) leading to that great definition of lesbians as non men attracted to non men.

US colleges adopting fringe views is nothing new. The point is it was never in broad public usage like cis so its not comparable.

Not sure why you’re so keen to prevent offence

If you view facts thru the lens of offence, that's on you.

while also being determined that no woman should get to define her own category

Um, they do. It's called 'human females'.

Why do you refuse to listen to all of the posters telling you it’s offensive?

That gender exists? Facts don't care about your feelings……

Why do you insist we have some magical gender essence when we tell you we really don’t?

Gender critical ideology is predicated on the existence of the social construction of gender stereotypes so you really do.

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 13/10/2026 08:08

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 13/10/2026 08:02

You only get your ‘ I read around so much’ news from policy statements? Interesting approach

So that's a no you have no evidence?

Why am I not surprised.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/10/2026 08:18

The decision to place men who believe/claim they feel like women under the category "woman" is a political and contested act that requires changing what the category of "woman" is. Many many women do not agree with it and do not see themselves as fitting into that redefined category.

It seems a very cruel act to me, to deny the self identity of half of humanity to accomodate a handful of sexist men.

nicepotoftea · 13/10/2026 08:21

alcovecupboards · 12/10/2026 21:52

I don't think you can argue on the one hand that this is ageist while on the other pretending that prefixes like 'cis' are slurs. Either you can grasp language or you can pretend you can't.

‘Trans’ you don’t identify with the gender (societal expectations of how a man or woman should behave) associated with your sex.

’Cis’ you do identify with the gender (societal expectations of how a man or woman should behave) associated with your sex.

Genderqueer
A term for people whose gender identity doesn’t sit comfortably with ‘man’ or ‘woman’. It is also used by people who reject binary gender roles and/or normative gender expression. Genderqueer is often used in a similar way to non-binary (so most people?)

Non-binary
A term for people whose gender doesn’t sit comfortably with ‘man’ or ‘woman. (So, again most people with a personality?)

Gender incongruence
A term used to describe the mismatch between a person’s gender and the sex they were assigned at birth. (How would one know that one was aligning unless one lived in a very strict religious community?)

Keeper at Home
A woman who fulfills her godly duty of looking after the home.

Most of these definitions are from Stonewall (definition of gender taken from WHO) and one of them comes from an American Christian website.

I understand what they are getting at. I just think the assumption that it’s necessary to define your identity in relation to gender is sexist, and from a practical point of view actually just includes most people under the trans umbrella.

I suppose you could say gender dysphoric/non gender dysphoric, although that excludes all the people who identify with a gender but don’t feel dysphoric.

I often get the impression that people who self identify as ‘cis’ haven’t really grasped what it means.

Neversofaraway · 13/10/2026 08:29

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 12/10/2026 22:10

I agree the misunderstanding isn't just age related but its more the age old battle between conservative & liberal thinking of traditional values versus social change that is the product of psychological traits of low v high openness to change.

The tension between the two being part of the human condition makes conflict unlikely to be resolved soon without compromise which is the evolutionary point I suppose.

Sex is a scientific fact and therefore unaffected by "traditional values or social change" and no amount of obfuscation will change that.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 13/10/2026 08:33

‘Trans’ you don’t identify with the gender (societal expectations of how a man or woman should behave) associated with your sex.
’Cis’ you do identify with the gender (societal expectations of how a man or woman should behave) associated with your sex.

Who defines these societal expectations of how I should behave? I have short hair, wear trousers, don't wear makeup, don't have children and never wanted them, and yet as far as I'm concerned I am a woman because I have all the biological markers.

These definitions sound incredibly regressive.

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 13/10/2026 08:34

Neversofaraway · 13/10/2026 08:29

Sex is a scientific fact and therefore unaffected by "traditional values or social change" and no amount of obfuscation will change that.

No one is contesting that. The context is gender not sex.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/10/2026 08:37

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 13/10/2026 08:02

cor blimey MN is giving me the run around this morning

Just enjoy your daily dose of mansplaining and chant rule 8 to yourself Bernard

Rules of misogyny
8 Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

nicepotoftea · 13/10/2026 08:39

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 12/10/2026 22:10

I agree the misunderstanding isn't just age related but its more the age old battle between conservative & liberal thinking of traditional values versus social change that is the product of psychological traits of low v high openness to change.

The tension between the two being part of the human condition makes conflict unlikely to be resolved soon without compromise which is the evolutionary point I suppose.

Nothing liberal about stuffing people into gender boxes.

The main difference between older women and younger women is that sometimes it takes a few decades to learn to say no.

borntobequiet · 13/10/2026 08:44

Good article. As I commented on another thread, many of us in our sixties, seventies and - God forbid - eighties learned to think for ourselves many fucking decades ago. We recognise patronising nonsense (especially from some younger women) by the metaphorical flies buzzing round it because it’s a pile of shit.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/10/2026 08:46

nicepotoftea · 13/10/2026 08:39

Nothing liberal about stuffing people into gender boxes.

The main difference between older women and younger women is that sometimes it takes a few decades to learn to say no.

As all women discover as we get older. Which is why Mumsnet is such a target for those who promote ageism.

Soulhorse · 13/10/2026 08:52

Language matters. Sex is not “assigned” at birth, it is observed and recorded, and is correct in 99.99% of births. Even DSD’s affect only one of the binary sex groups.
Whatever gender you decide to adopt is your own decision, but you are the sex you were born until the day you die. And WH can fuck off, patronising gits.

nicepotoftea · 13/10/2026 08:54

borntobequiet · 13/10/2026 08:44

Good article. As I commented on another thread, many of us in our sixties, seventies and - God forbid - eighties learned to think for ourselves many fucking decades ago. We recognise patronising nonsense (especially from some younger women) by the metaphorical flies buzzing round it because it’s a pile of shit.

Women old enough to have burned a bra in the seventies or been involved in the punk scene are now in their seventies and eighties.

'Women in their sixties' includes Alison Moyet and Madonna.

Who are these sheltered souls supposed to be?

nicepotoftea · 13/10/2026 08:58

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 13/10/2026 08:07

Must be a fringe category - it was John Hopkins University (apparently number 9 in the US) leading to that great definition of lesbians as non men attracted to non men.

US colleges adopting fringe views is nothing new. The point is it was never in broad public usage like cis so its not comparable.

Not sure why you’re so keen to prevent offence

If you view facts thru the lens of offence, that's on you.

while also being determined that no woman should get to define her own category

Um, they do. It's called 'human females'.

Why do you refuse to listen to all of the posters telling you it’s offensive?

That gender exists? Facts don't care about your feelings……

Why do you insist we have some magical gender essence when we tell you we really don’t?

Gender critical ideology is predicated on the existence of the social construction of gender stereotypes so you really do.

Why do you insist we have some magical gender essence when we tell you we really don’t?
Gender critical ideology is predicated on the existence of the social construction of gender stereotypes so you really do.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. The belief that gender is socially imposed is obviously not the same as believing that gender is innate.

ImNotAsCooperativeAsYouMightWantAWomanToBe · 13/10/2026 08:58

"The continuing war on the word ‘women’. Two of the most popular posts I published this year touched on the question of why ‘women’ now seems to be the hardest word. In April the women’s section of the UK Green Party set off a Twitterstorm with its use of the term ‘non-men’. "

https://debuk.wordpress.com/2016/12/28/2016-the-bad-the-bad-and-the-ugly/

green party women

Default: male

On Twitter recently, the British Green Party’s women’s organization explained why it had chosen to refer to its constituency as ‘non-men’ rather than ‘women’. This inspired an outbreak of the kind …

https://debuk.wordpress.com/2016/04/16/default-male/

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/10/2026 08:59

nicepotoftea · 13/10/2026 08:58

Why do you insist we have some magical gender essence when we tell you we really don’t?
Gender critical ideology is predicated on the existence of the social construction of gender stereotypes so you really do.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. The belief that gender is socially imposed is obviously not the same as believing that gender is innate.

Some people would tell slaves they simply belong to the category of people who like to wear chains.

Imdunfer · 13/10/2026 09:00

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 13/10/2026 02:54

Cis is just a descriptive term to distinguish natal women from trans women that has a legitimate association to what it is describing in both:

Latin Etymology: The prefix cis- comes from Latin and means "on this side" or "on the same side", contrasting with trans-, which means "on the other side" or "across".

Chemistry: In chemistry, cis describes an isomer where functional groups or atoms are arranged on the same side of a double bond or carbon ring (opposed to trans).

Given a critique by the gender critical movement that the shared usage of 'woman' 'erases' the existence of natal women, you would think a prefix distinction would solve that grievance but given their real problem seems to be some bizarre territorial ownership of words, no.

I suspect your misunderstanding regarding stereotypes is because you seem to be confusing prescriptivism with descriptivism. Trans women/men identifying with the typical behaviours of the opposite sex isn't saying that's what defines men & women for everyone, rather they as individuals identify with this categorical social distinction & want to centre that as part of their identity.

Right or wrong, the concepts of 'woman/man' carry both biological & sociological associations that distinguish men from women that has implications on how individuals understand themselves as an identity. Trans people didn't create these categories, the typical behaviours of cis men & women did.

You act as if individuals don't have a right to define themselves as an identity based on what associations they identify with because they violate the norm AND the norm is set in stone when in fact the norm is fluid according to cultural context.

Edited

you would think a prefix distinction would solve that grievance

You make an excellent point.

We don't need to call ourselves CIS women. If trans women simply call themselves trans women, the job is done. Women without the prefix already means born a female.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 13/10/2026 09:06

Is it any wonder the BBC needs to agonisingly correct misinformation for those without access to unbiased sources.

What are these magical 'unbiased' sources?

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 13/10/2026 09:06

nicepotoftea · 13/10/2026 08:58

Why do you insist we have some magical gender essence when we tell you we really don’t?
Gender critical ideology is predicated on the existence of the social construction of gender stereotypes so you really do.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. The belief that gender is socially imposed is obviously not the same as believing that gender is innate.

The point in this context is gender critical feminists believe in socially constructed gender categories…..they just don't like that some people identify with them as an identity because they believe it perpetuates gender stereotypes.

nicepotoftea · 13/10/2026 09:08

Imdunfer · 13/10/2026 09:00

you would think a prefix distinction would solve that grievance

You make an excellent point.

We don't need to call ourselves CIS women. If trans women simply call themselves trans women, the job is done. Women without the prefix already means born a female.

'Non' also works well as a differentiator that just determines that somebody isn't in a group, so 'non-christian' can include people of any faith or none.

'Cis' on the other hand describes somebody with a specific relationship with gender.

ImNotAsCooperativeAsYouMightWantAWomanToBe · 13/10/2026 09:08

I see my post showing the actual Tweet from Green Party Women UK has been hidden...

ByDreamyMember · 13/10/2026 09:09

alcovecupboards · 12/10/2026 21:52

I don't think you can argue on the one hand that this is ageist while on the other pretending that prefixes like 'cis' are slurs. Either you can grasp language or you can pretend you can't.

But this isn't the point the article is making... In fact she addresses that exact viewpoint

Choppingwoodcarryingwater · 13/10/2026 09:10

Imdunfer · 13/10/2026 09:00

you would think a prefix distinction would solve that grievance

You make an excellent point.

We don't need to call ourselves CIS women. If trans women simply call themselves trans women, the job is done. Women without the prefix already means born a female.

Look, in broad usage that's correct. The main purpose/utility for the distinction is when you're referring to them both as we are in the same conversation otherwise it can cause confusion not to distinguish them. It's really not that bigger deal in every day life because this usage is rarely necessary.