I hope you will be proud of me..

[namechange62]

I'm not very educated, married to a good man, live a quiet life in a small village in the south west, have good relationships with males in my family who are good men. (Grand/Father, uncles, sons, son in law) and have strong women in my life (mother, daughter daughter's in law, nieces etc).
Just setting the scene really..

Well it all kicked off this afternoon at my house. (When I say kicked off I mean a quick argument lasting about half an hour! Not EastEnders worthy..)

I have to say I had a few. Not many because I don't really drink but ..

Somehow it was bought up about Gen Z being offended about something that my kids/and partners grew up with (ages 29-36…). A sketch in Little Britain. Somehow the conversation turned to trans stuff and eventually turned to transwomen.

Anyway I bought up the case of transwomen playing in the (WNBA? ) basketball and how some men are pretending to be women to join. Showing solidarity with the woman having to play with 6ft 10in transwomen? I've probably got details wrong but hopefully you can understand?

Well it got heated.
SIL Sort of agreed but said it's rare. I said even one transwomen taking a female space is one too many. I talked about transwomen in female toilets. How do we know who the 'safe' ones are. It got on to male violence v female violence.

My Dil who works with victims of DV agreed and was quoting statistics about calls to DV helplines rising during the world cup.

My son got very heated and did the usual whataboutery. But what about women who do the same?! Trans men in male sports? Transmen who use mens toilets/changing rooms.

I said it's very rare but he continued to get riled when I started spouting some stuff I'd read on MN.
Mediocre men who fail in mens teams taking places from women, men invading women's spaces for fetish reasons. I said do you ever enter the toilets thinking whether you are safe? (Surprise that he didn't even know what I meant? And surprised when I told him I did!). His GF then agreed with me. I said you have no skin in this game (males taking female places in sport, jobs and prizes) and never will!
He got heated and continued with the whataboutery but I held my ground.

Told him about the transwomen who invade female changing rooms (I encountered one myself) and how would he feel if his grandma had to deal with a semi naked man who was getting kicks by humiliatingly women.

SiL got it and eventually DS got it too. These are normal hardworking men.
Anyway we left it at that but both of them said they didn't know half of what I'd said.

I read a lot on this thread on MN and want to say thank you for educating me. I can't help many people to understand but I think I got 2 men today to think a bit more about it.

Trans came up - I think it was sports. I didn't do anywhere near as good as you, OP, and afaik my DD is entirely captured and thinks I am obsessed with this topic. One of the men present said he saw my point - and my DD's partner said he agreed with me on no men in women's sports, so a bit of a win. Not with DD though.
Well done you for standing your ground and having the information there to dispel the lies that are told.💐

Yeah, you showed your son .

Well done OP.

I had a similar shouty conversation with DB the other week. I usually keep quiet about it to avoid conflict as both my siblings are very rainbow. Db works in a very LGBTQ+ industry but he said something absolutely outrageous about JKR paying nazi/Holocaust denying groups or something bizarre and I just lost my absolute shit, forced him to cite his sources, of course he couldn't.

That opened the flood gates and all the classics came out. He kept refuting my 'single sex spaces' arguments by saying he thought everything should be mixed sex anyway. Of course I laughed at that too, it's like it has passed him by how one+sided gendered violence is, I set him right there. He's a young gay man it has literally never occured to him that feminism had a reason to exist.

I kept saying. 'What's the difference between a transwoman and a man' over and over and over. He couldn't answer, kept deflecting.

I'm fortunate that he loves a good argument so he didn't leave offended at all and acknowledged that I had brought up things he has never considered before. Even thanked me. It's hard for him as he has many many trans friends who I'm sure are lovely but....women have needs too.
...needs and vulnerabilities that had never occured to him.

Well done, OP, and to everyone woman who has spoken up and stood her ground. We've done amazing things; all those individual tiny acts of assertion add up.

Well done you OP!

And I am sure not just 2 - think of the snowball effect.

Who knows who they will now influence ......

I have been trying to get my head around the what aboutery i.e. transmen vs transwomen.

The best point I can make is that males - including transwomen- are responsible for most of the violence towards women, whereas women- including transmen are not responsible for the violence towards men... therefore, you cannot apply the same rules. Therefore, males do not feel threatened by a woman coming into a single-sex male space in the way that women feel threatened by a male coming into a female single-sex space.

The only way forward is to have a space for female non-trans men, and the rest can all share another one.

That's huge well done! It's scary at work!

Someone get the smelling salts.

Thank you for pointing out that currently there are no transwomen playing in the WNBA. I did also speak about females who lost their places on the team in other sports. Cycling, weight lifting etc.
As for the rest of my post it still stands.

Well done OP, from little acorns grow mighty oaks, you planted the seeds of truth in your DS's mind, now he'll start to see the evidence for himself, once you see it you can't un-see it. 👏 💐

I don’t want men in single sex women’s spaces because I am a rape survivor. I am legally entitled to that in law.

why do my feelings matter less than those of trans gender individuals?

why are my legal rights less important than theirs?

Ps. Trans women have attacked women and girls in toilets so please don’t say that there are not the ones doing so, as that is a lie.

I'm still reading and taking in everything said. (Apart from one post!)

@TransParentlyAnnoyed

Women DON’T want men in single-sex women’s spaces. Trans-identified males are MEN!!

Why do you think what men want trumps what women want and need in single-sex women’s spaces?

NO, THANK YOU.

Dictionary definition of BIGOTRY…

Obstinate or narrow-minded adherence to one’s own opinions…

Deeply ingrained bigotry prevents a person from even considering counter arguments.

It seems to me that the TRA’s and MRA’s display a level of intolerance, bias, and dogmatism towards women that if there were League Tables for Bigots, they would be top placed.

Not if the opinion is based in fact and law, then the person is just repeating for the millionth time, something someone should know because it's a fact.

Intransigence is a noun that means a stubborn refusal to change your views, opinions, or behavior, especially an unwillingness to compromise or reach an agreement.

It's even got 'trans' in it.

And most men would love to compete against transmen in sport as they'd very likely beat them!

Well done OP xx

That post is worth studying because it encapsulates a lot of the TRA arguments:

It's just a tiny number.
Feminism is just like racism.
Feminism is just like homophobia.
Children will kill themselves and it will be your fault.
'Whatabout' violence from non-trans men?
Words used to try to make you feel bad about yourself: Shame, cringe, hateful, ridiculous, bullying, venom
Words used to make you think that other people will dislike you: Bigots, far-right, conspiracy, myths.

and often a strange compulsion to include words such as hypersexuallity, predatory, fetishist.

Once you see it for what it is, an exercise in forcing women to submit to misogyny and removal of child safeguarding, it completely loses its power. Hence the escalation in rhetoric found in many TRA posts on MN, in an attempt to re-establish control.

Absolutely this.. I did read it and thought there's always one.. I'm in awe of the power of the women on MN who are much more articulate than me.

Well done OP! Very brave of you to dig in and stand your ground

Agree with PP.

It's really helpful to have the TRA arguments laid out so we can look at them. Thanks to TransParently for this.

Very useful.

The number of trans athletes at even college elite level is so small, the US ones would barely fill a small coach.

Minimising the issue. How many women losing places/scholarship/opportunities is acceptable, in order to allow males to compete in women's sport?

You're proud of spreading the transphobic myths which are destroying young trans lives, by encouraging violence against them?

What myths? Who has encouraged violence?

Calling a minority fetishists, repeating the myths about hypersexuality the white cishet majority has endlessly used against minorities?

A minority of men ARE fetishists. And you are the only person who has suggested 'hypersexuality'.

Exactly the same myths used against people of colour and gay people? Against all minority women, forever?

Eh?

Wow. Hope the next trans kid to get beaten up in school is a fitting tribute to you.

Attempt to shame.

Hope you're proud of all the young trans lives you are helping to destroy.

Attempt to shame.

How could anyone be proud of this ignorance and bigotry. I'd be so ashamed if you were part of my family. It's cringeworthy, and it's absolutely not activism.

Attempt to shame.

Treating individuals as a hypersexual, predatory hive mind is evidence of your own limitations. Which have nothing to do with education. Empathy and having an open mind require absolutely no qualifications. My mother's in her 80s and passed zero exams in her life, but doesn't hate minorities.

Garbled conflation of women's rights advocacy with prejudice.

Maybe consider how absolutely hateful and ridiculous you looked, reciting conspiracy theories learned from the far-right online.

Attempt to shame.

Then think about how many trans kids won't get through this school year, but will drop out thanks to the bullying you enable.

Attempt to coerce using emotional manipulation.

The next suicide or murder (which you will undoubtedly pin on the parents who desperately tried to save them) is actually on every person who spreads these vile conspiracy theories.

Attempt to coerce using emotional manipulation.

Trans children are living in fear because of people like you - and many young trans people feel they have no future.

Attempt to coerce using emotional manipulation.

They see adults discussing them with such venom that they see no.way forward, no hope of treatment or a job, and are worn out with hypervigilance.

Attempt to coerce using emotional manipulation.

They can't stop being trans because that's who they are.

Meaningless assertion.

No one needs to pretend to be trans to enter women's toilets.

No one needs to pretend anything to get their rocks off, but some do.

They are public spaces.

Women's toilets are spaces for women. They aren't for men.

But instead of addressing male violence and entitlement to female bodies, you're pretending that we need to focus on trans women?

Women are addressing male violence and entitlement, and part of that includes advocating women's rights to single sex spaces.

Trans women are not the ones attacking is in toilets.

Some transwomen are attacking women, including in toilets.

Cis men are - and they mostly get away with it.

There is no difference between a 'cis man' and a 'transwoman'.

That is the reality. Oh my god and you're proud? Of contributing to trans children's misery, persecution and pain? Of course. Of course you are. Because all you want is praise from other bigots. My god.

Attempt to shame and coerce using emotional manipulation.

This is spot on. I WISH I could speak up in work, but public sector and captured. When I’m closer to retirement, if this bullshit is still prevalent, I’ll let loose then