Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hilary Cass sent a document to every single MP and Peer, justifying and defending the puberty blockers trial

264 replies

SingleSexSpacesInSchools · Yesterday 13:28

https://x.com/JamesEsses/status/2075512549248745744?s=20

There are ten images on X, sorry can't add them all here, or upload a file with it all in.

James Esses (@JamesEsses) on X

🚨Breaking🚨 Last night, in what is significant overreach for a backbench Peer, Hilary Cass sent a document to every single MP and Peer, justifying and defending the puberty blockers trial. I have posted below the full document for people to read. He...

https://x.com/JamesEsses/status/2075512549248745744?s=20

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · Today 17:36

AimsAndObjectives · Today 16:57

This is true, though there is no placebo as PP suggested, because a child would soon realise that their puberty has not been stopped. Also, the 'matched' children do not want (or, for some of them, do not qualify for) PBs and so are not a perfect match for the children who want PBs.

You are right, those not getting the puberty blockers would eventually realise they were not on them, but perhaps believing they might be on them would make them a little less intensely aware of pubertal changes, depending on how young they were at the outset. Going without them would be their lottery-like outcome in the trial, in order to see how they go on to feel without them over the next two years. ( Some might not find it as bad as they thought.) But no doubt hoping for trial participants like this is an unrealistic expectation.

So there is no real trial possible in my opinion except:

  • to see if the puberty blocker causes physical harm over two years, ( too short a time to see perhaps?)
  • to affirm the honey-moon period still persisting within that two years that ‘yes’ the child feels better and has not committed suicide.
  • to see if the child wants to come off puberty blockers and go through puberty after all ( if that can really still happen).
  • to see if a child about to be 18 wants to go on to cross sex hormones.

Finding outcomes after two years must be very limited as an 11 year old, say, will still be five years short of adult/18. Yet any effects that arise after the end of the trial might well be the result of it. At the same there will be no proof that one followed from the other in those following years, only correlation.

ScrollingLeaves · Today 17:41

TwoLoonsAndASprout · Today 17:08

The transed-at-2 boy was fictional. Cass admitted this in her letter to MPs and lords. Supposedly she had been told about such children in the course of conducting the review, but that particular child does not exist.

Your concern, however, remains valid.

Goodness. Thank you for letting me know.

ScrollingLeaves · Today 17:46

noblegiraffe · Today 17:14

Oh I see, you want an exact match.

Kids on the puberty blocker trial are matched to kids not on the trial but not that extensively, to compare brain scans etc.

Within the trial presumably they’ll have at least some of these ‘living in stealth’ kids who will be randomised to either getting the blockers now or in a year’s time so there’ll be some comparison.

Yes, or close, or else it is not like for like.

MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 17:47

AimsAndObjectives · Today 17:11

There is something else in the letter which is bothering me. Cass says, in regards to the 'Jo' children 'Even with input from the very skilled therapists in the new services, encouraging them to think more flexibly about their identity is rarely successful, regardless of what their natural trajectory would have been if they had not been socially transitioned at that very early stage.' (Bottom p5 and top p6)
Has there really been enough time since the setting up of these new services for therapy to be fully explored with these children? Surely undoing many years of damage is the work of many years of therapy? Has there been time for an assessment of why it worked for some and not for others? What is meant by 'what their natural trajectory would have been'? Does it mean girl/boy? If so, that means there are some girls in this cohort, which definitely does not follow the 'true trans' narrative, which is always males.
More questions than answers, I fear.

Edit SPaG

Edited

Yes. And if you know 2 year olds - really know them, watch them grow and develop - you know that no 2 (or 3,4,5 year old) has the capacity to resist the attentions of trusted adults insisting that they're the opposite sex.

I'd have so much more respect for people who acknowledge this and pay attention to the extreme emotional abuse that constitutes socially transitioning little children. Once that's happened and the police / social services have intervened to deal with adults abusing children like this, then there's an important discussion identifying how these now teenagers can be supported.

But making arguments for continuing to sell these children a lie, piling on more harm in the terms of long term physical and mental harm, is unacceptable. That it's coming from senior people in the NHS again demonstrates how much medicine can be a weak link in terns of safeguarding children.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · Today 17:57

Read Some Piaget Please has an open letter to Cass about the transed-at-2 child (written before Cass admitted that the child was fictitious):

An open letter to Baroness Cass ref the case of this child, whose situation needs to investigated by social services. This indeed is not a political matter but one of child protection.

Dear Baroness Cass, I am writing in response to the case you described of the eleven year old boy socially transitioned by his parents at two and a half, now living stealth, afraid to attend school as either sex, and increasingly withdrawn and physically deconditioned as a result. I wanted to set out why I think this case illustrates something more specific than the question you posed about whether politicians or doctors should decide what happens to children like him.

The case is, on its own terms, a clear demonstration of premature identity foreclosure. A child of two and a half has no capacity for the kind of abstract, exploratory self reflection that genuine identity formation requires, on any developmental account from Piaget through Marcia. What happened to this child at that age was necessarily a decision made on his behalf and then sustained around him, not a discovery he himself reached. Bronfenbrenner's ecological model describes exactly the mechanism by which that early decision then becomes self perpetuating: once a social transition is established in the home, it is carried into school, peer relationships, and eventually clinical contact, each system reinforcing what the previous one had already settled, with no point at which the original premise is revisited. By the time this child reaches adolescence, an identity adopted before he could speak in full sentences has become something he now actively conceals and fears having questioned, which is a strange and telling outcome for an identity supposedly discovered rather than constructed.

The detail you raise of weakened bones from inactivity rather than from medical intervention is, I think, the most important part of the case, because it shows the harm operating through an entirely social pathway. A child too afraid of being outed to attend school is a child whose ordinary developmental environment, peer contact, physical activity, the everyday testing of self against the world that Erikson and Marcia both treat as necessary to identity formation, has been closed off by the position he has been placed in. This is not a side effect of any drug. It is the direct consequence of a foreclosed identity that has left him with nowhere safe to be a child.

I would push back on framing the central question as one of medical versus political authority over decisions like puberty blockers. The decision that produced the harm you describe was not a medical one at all. It was a parental and social decision taken years before any clinical pathway became relevant, and the clinical system he now exists within is managing the consequences of that earlier decision rather than the cause of his distress.

Given that he is now isolated, school avoidant, and showing physical signs of neglect of his basic developmental needs, I think it is also worth asking plainly whether this is a case that ought to have come to the attention of children's social services on ordinary safeguarding grounds, independent of any question about gender identity at all. I would suggest the more pressing question your case actually raises is what support and recourse exists for a child in his position now, given how early and how thoroughly the foreclosure already occurred, and what should change about how social transition in early childhood is approached so that fewer children arrive at eleven in a position this difficult to unwind. Yours sincerely,

https://nitter.net/prof_curiosity1/status/2071302500242932026#m

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Today 17:58

Shedmistress · Today 16:07

The original trial was turned down by the ethics committee so they kept going until a different committee said yes.

They then completely disregarded their own age limits.

And the guy that did all this, ended up as president of the royal college of paediatricians. After cass had ended her time as president.

They are all in on it.

Someday, somewhere, someone is going to release a "minors on an island somewhere" dossier with all the names...

Shedmistress · Today 17:59

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Today 17:58

Someday, somewhere, someone is going to release a "minors on an island somewhere" dossier with all the names...

Quite.

They all know what they are doing here.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · Today 18:08

@MrsOvertonsWindow, you might also like this, from Read Some Piaget Please:

A property [gender dysphoria] defined by its persistence under years of disconfirming pressure cannot be present in someone who has not yet lived through any disconfirming pressure. It is not that a child's gender identity is a smaller, earlier version of an adult's. It is that a child cannot, by definition, possess the thing the term was coined to describe, in the same way a newborn cannot have a long marriage.

https://nitter.net/i/article/2070023912641937622

noblegiraffe · Today 18:14

ScrollingLeaves · Today 17:46

Yes, or close, or else it is not like for like.

Clinical trials can never be exactly like for like, that's not a reasonable expectation.

AimsAndObjectives · Today 18:15

@MrsOvertonsWindow But making arguments for continuing to sell these children a lie, piling on more harm in the terms of long term physical and mental harm, is unacceptable. That it's coming from senior people in the NHS again demonstrates how much medicine can be a weak link in terns of safeguarding children.

Yes, this disturbs me. It is evident from Cass's letter that she can see that the gross negligence of the medical profession has created a situation where an unbelievable level of abuse has been enacted on children, some of whom were toddlers when it started. She seems to think that the situation is irretrievable for some of those children and that the ultimate outcome will be cross-sex hormones and 'transition'. To that I would add a lifetime of attempting deceit and living with distress about how other people may perceive them, in a society that, rightly, does not accept that they are the opposite sex. I shy away from hyperbole, but is this not John Money's experiment being repeated?

noblegiraffe · Today 18:44

She seems to think that the situation is irretrievable for some of those children and that the ultimate outcome will be cross-sex hormones and 'transition'.

I suppose there is the potential, if these children have been living 'in stealth' up until puberty and only then come into contact with the NHS via the gender services then there is the potential if their extreme distress at puberty can be postponed then there additional time during which more therapeutic work can take place.

I don't know, it sounds like an absolutely awful and upsetting situation for those children. We know that adults who were raised to believe they were a different sex than that at birth for whatever reason, really struggle when they find out, with potentially calamitous outcomes. I guess the distress of these children at finding out they've been lied to, that those around them have been lied to, and that the lie is about to be revealed must also be pretty acute.

MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 19:09

AimsAndObjectives · Today 18:15

@MrsOvertonsWindow But making arguments for continuing to sell these children a lie, piling on more harm in the terms of long term physical and mental harm, is unacceptable. That it's coming from senior people in the NHS again demonstrates how much medicine can be a weak link in terns of safeguarding children.

Yes, this disturbs me. It is evident from Cass's letter that she can see that the gross negligence of the medical profession has created a situation where an unbelievable level of abuse has been enacted on children, some of whom were toddlers when it started. She seems to think that the situation is irretrievable for some of those children and that the ultimate outcome will be cross-sex hormones and 'transition'. To that I would add a lifetime of attempting deceit and living with distress about how other people may perceive them, in a society that, rightly, does not accept that they are the opposite sex. I shy away from hyperbole, but is this not John Money's experiment being repeated?

I suppose we need to put all this in the context of the NHS. Which has repeatedly demonstrated that safeguarding children comes second place to pandering to the demands of adults determined on imposing their niche beliefs on the rest of society. The debacle at GIDs exposed the inappropriate influence on child health care of organisations like Gendered Intelligence etc. The NHS is awash with costly & inappropriate rainbow initiatives, endless policies that remove the language of women & the rights of women to safety and privacy from men while (unsurprisingly) mothers and babies are repeatedly harmed by inadequate maternity care that the NHS can't be arsed to tackle - the ultimate safeguarding fail.

Cass works in that environment where children are seen as collateral when faced with the demands of the sex change brigade.

1984Now · Today 19:17

MrsOvertonsWindow · Today 19:09

I suppose we need to put all this in the context of the NHS. Which has repeatedly demonstrated that safeguarding children comes second place to pandering to the demands of adults determined on imposing their niche beliefs on the rest of society. The debacle at GIDs exposed the inappropriate influence on child health care of organisations like Gendered Intelligence etc. The NHS is awash with costly & inappropriate rainbow initiatives, endless policies that remove the language of women & the rights of women to safety and privacy from men while (unsurprisingly) mothers and babies are repeatedly harmed by inadequate maternity care that the NHS can't be arsed to tackle - the ultimate safeguarding fail.

Cass works in that environment where children are seen as collateral when faced with the demands of the sex change brigade.

I get the impression that Cass has feet in both camps.
She's intelligent enough to know what reality is.
But she's also part of an organisation that is institutionally captured, and anyone in these situations will imbibe the ethos.
I suspect her "rational" side was on display in her original report.
But the side which has to show kindness and is inherently suicidally empathetic is to the fore in supporting the PB trial.
Maybe she got a real shock how many on her "side", her NHS colleagues, so took against her report.
Or maybe she's genuinely sociopathic on this, yes, she knows deep down most of gender ideology is baseless.
But this trial will provide data.
She's the ultimate inhumane, unethical scientist.
As we've found with stuff like lobotomies, recovered memories etc historically.

Heggettypeg · Today 19:17

TwoLoonsAndASprout · Today 16:13

I understand where you’re coming from.

But, if one of my undergraduate students had written a proposal for a project in which they intended to collect new data, but refused to even consider a brief examination of extant data, no matter how poor that extant data was, I would be having a serious talk with that student.

You have to grapple with all the data. You cannot just say “well my data will be better than the old data” - particularly when no one has even been able to see, let alone examine, the old data. Even if you end up saying, yes, the old data was insufficient, we need new data, you still have to look at the old data and establish this.

Edited

This. Until we look, we don't know what we're dismissing.
The fact that the data is being withheld is interesting in itself.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread