Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

My bil is mostly on the trans train (he accepts that TW shouldn’t be in female only spaces to some extent). We saw him at the weekend and he is now saying menopause is psychosomatic and that women are thinking they have the symptoms because they’ve read or heard about them and think they should have them. 🤯 I said if you’re talking about the people with cocks that you think are women they’re not going to have a fecking menopause. Luckily the other adults were completely on my side and we all just took the piss out of him. It’s probably going to be the next way they’ll try and diminish our experiences.

From TT:

HH Survey conducted by a: gender within Defra. 167 t member respondents. Responded to v specific qs c how made to feel - 87% said to say sex is binary and immutable causes to feel harassment etc
CA I do feel q is leading q but that;s the outcome.

HH survey done cos you didn't
CA But we were engaging - with networks etc with Defra, which were supportive of t people
HH Your actions didn't occur until after open platform decision
CA We engaged always with LGBT staff networks long before these issues arose.

CA By early July had had discussions with DEI professionals. GC found to be acceptable so we couldn't discriminate and treat GC people in Defra less favourably. So we were discussing with LGBT within Defra. But not amount of consultation would make Defra do something

My note: coming up "...Defra considered unlawful". Bad break!

@FarmersBlonde

JFC How are you not banged up for murder? Has he always been insufferable?

87% said to say sex is binary and immutable causes to feel harassment etc

Tough. The truth doesn't always cause warm and fluffy feelings.

From TT:

CA Defra considered unlawful.
HH Your WS - didn't carry out full EQ assessment. Aware PSED foster good relations between people with PCss. One of three aims in PSED. Other two duties - eliminate discrimination etc and advance equality of opportunity

HH Duty to foster good relations - been a complete failure
CA Have made good efforts. Admit haven't succeeded cos of two groups and inability to meet in the middle. But duty applies to all PCs
HH It's failed in that respect looking back. But you knew likely to fail in July 22

CA I was hopeful could find compromise that majority of people could live with. Starting point was our position legally re EA and PCs, and find way forward from that point.
HH p138. Email from you to Tora Wortley sent just before EW put amended post up.

I think HH shouldn't pursue this line of questioning, she will lose against CA who seems very on the ball with stats etc.

Long may she continue, in that case (not really, but you understand what I mean)

What does PSED stand for?

public sector equality duty

Just a reminder -

write your work emails as if they will be read out in an employment tribunal and you will be cross examined on them by HH or JR.

And not just your emails.

Or even worse, NC

😨

From TT:

Seeking to reassure t colleagues by putting comment c wanting to support and inc t employees below EW post.

HH Blue touch paper. Looks like levity.
CA That;s my style. Didn't know T W going on leave. Including another person in EDI. Even EDI practitioners are entitled to take leave. Wanted to ensure someone else with her.
HH Looks like a rushed attempt to minimise effect on t colleagues. Put a post up and that's it. Rushed.
CA Not rushed. Had been discussing issues for some time. Seen level of hostility to EW post. Couldn't stop EW posting agreed post. Seeking to minimise reaction by remanding everyone need to behave professionally at work

[missed - tech issues]
HH Re PSED - you are aware.
CA Yes. Haven't read recently.
HH EDI team not gathering stats c effect on t people
CA No stat analysis. We were aware was causing distress.
HH 25-30k people on Yammer
CA Yes
HH What proportion t or id as t

CA Not off top of head
HH Did you consider stats at time
CA Not sure we did. Not sure collecting that data and that's common across CS. When I was at Cab Off we were looking at how to collect that data and what qs to ask.
HH You took no steps to count/minimise effect on t staff

I've forgotten who said it but I read on X once

'I'm afraid that if NC asked me what I'd had for lunch, I'd confess to murdering my mother in law and hiding her body, jaywalking on the way to work and shoplifting a candy bar when I was 6..'

Psychosomatic? I think that's a very telling insight actually into the thinking of TRAS and the insistence of TWs that they are a woman because they feel so. They believe in the power of thought to make changes to reality.

So glad your BIL got the piss ripped out of him. Does he believe periods cease because we think them out of existence? Or did he believe that menopause is just feeling a bit out of sorts for a few months?

Oh no! Bonnie Tyler has died.

💔

Nooooooooo! :(

No, it’s only been the last 2/3 years since he moved jobs and is now very much captured. I mostly take the piss out of him. I’m lucky that the vast majority of people I know are GC so I can cope with the odd divvy.

From TT:

CA. No cos different people have PCs. Silencing people with a PC isn't a good way to foster good relations.
HH Re allowing open platform and establishment of Defra SEEN. No monitoring of progress against three PSED
J Important to make clear when you are asking about.

HH Allowing open platform July 23. No attempt to monitor against three aims in PSED.
CA We were talking and listening to networks. It was a regulated platform, not just a free for all. Could regulate use of Yammer. We have no documented assessment but was constant process

and constant listening. Difficulty at root was demand from t colleagues and some networks was people shouldn't be able to voice GC views within Defra and we thought would be unlawful not to allow it. And attempts to move beyond that and perceive what was harmful -

CA. No cos different people have PCs. Silencing people with a PC isn't a good way to foster good relations.

👏

Difficulty at root was demand from t colleagues and some networks was people shouldn't be able to voice GC views within Defra and we thought would be unlawful not to allow it

Quite!

How many times is HH going to circle this one with "but what about the hurt feelings of the trans staff" and CA with "we have to consider ALL staff's feelings and we expect everyone to be professional at work".

CA... Difficulty at root was demand from t colleagues and some networks was people shouldn't be able to voice GC views within Defra and we thought would be unlawful not to allow it.

I'm enjoying CAs evidence!

From TT:

couldn't really get beyond that.
HH Your answer re no documenting - also same answer when it comes to Defra SEEN
CA Yes
HH WS para 6. Forstater - GC beliefs protected and difference between holding belief and how manifest
CA Yes
HH Can't misgender with impunity
CA Absolutely

HH PSED duty is anticipatory
CA yes
HH Aware of toxic debate in society re issue, even in March 22 when had conversation with AM
CA Yes
NC J - will you intervene on word 'toxic'
HH It was in {someone's]doc
J More interested in timing ...

My note: of course he is. Eyeroll.

NC J - will you intervene on word 'toxic'
HH It was in {someone's]doc
J More interested in timing

More interested in HH not being NC, more likely😡