Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

So now they have to vet every single post/recommendation and book/film suggestions?

WTF is HH on about.

Good idea!
CA's answers are making HH's qq look silly.

Desperately clutching at the smallest of straws

.

Not even straws, just the chaff

From TT:

disagree with us. Many people would like us to stop referring to Stonewall, but we're not going to do that we are not in the business of censorship.
HH but it was from a senior solicitor, cochair of SEEN
CA I don't think her job is relevant, it was posted on the SEEN group. It

was available for people to look at it but they would have to go look for it.
J so it wasn't on all company Y. It had gone by then.
CA yes, it was there group.
HH all company had gone but posts could appear on feed or email if previously interacted with

that person or group.
CA yes
J an individual could disable email or updates?
CA I don't know how the tech works, it's like facebook, it makes suggestions
HH one of the books promoted by MBIM, she's not just an author of the book but she's listed as an advisor to Trans Trend

HH reading out quotes from C WS, MBIM not a celebration and Trans Trend is website that says transition is a social phenomenon, you can't challenge that can you

And who is C when he’s at home? The Oracle. So the claimant, ST, doesn’t like a book that many think says children are just perfect as they are, and encourages them to look after their bodies I do wish these men didn’t involve themselves so much in a way which may not have children’s interests at heart. And it be given such traction by accomplices.

Secondly, he can say what he likes about Transgender Trend too. Same applies, in whose interests.

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, we're now about half way through our flight from Caroline Airs to the end of the day. And I just thought I'd let you know that I am bored, bored, bored, bored, bored, bored! We're, unbelievably, still flying over the same bloody territory, which continues to be stupidly big, really enormous, far bigger than necessary. We've been in the air now for about a week. It doesn't look like we'll be landing until the last syllable of recorded time. So if anyone on board knows any card tricks, ghost stories or would like to have some sex, please do make your way to the flight deck. Thank you

I can't cope with this!
It's so repetitive.

From TT:

CA I don't know anything about her
HH not published by mainstream publisher but by 'sister site' of Trans Trend
CA I don't know anything about her or the book
HH ..I'm going to read out the central message of the book
J you have a post here that is about something that has

nothing to do with the workplace
CA yes, that's how Yammer was used
HH MBIM 'you're born in your body, you don't have a spare, so hug, love it and treat it with care' so that message that children should accept the body they are born with.....
AL are we entering the same

territory
J the first q is did the witness see the book, know about the book, read the book
CA no to all of those
HH back to C WS, book is source of invalidation of trans identity, in that context, it's a reasonable characterisation
CA I don't know, it seems to me its a

HH MBIM 'you're born in your body, you don't have a spare, so hug, love it and treat it with care' so that message that children should accept the body they are born with.....

Such a disgraceful, transphobic message

ST complained of the message in MBIM because "not everyone feels comfortable in their body". The willful blindness was frustrating to read.

If all children were comfortable in their bodies, Rooney wouldn't have needed to write a book aimed at teaching that.

In fairness to HH, this is a significantly different topic - whether a book encouraging body positivity in children is the work of the devil.
It's a bit less boring.

Glinner's got another apology and £25k in compensation from the Met.

HH MBIM 'you're born in your body, you don't have a spare, so hug, love it and treat it with care' so that message that children should accept the body they are born with.....

Literal genocide, that is.

Ȃ̇̈G̑̇̈H̑̇̈H̑̇̈H̑̇̈H̑̇̈

From TT:

reasonable interpretation, there are other possible interpretations
HH now, on to changes in PoC, no links to external sites, is that because of links re Mumsnet issue
CA the Mumsnet issue, prompted decision not to share Yammer content elsewhere, there were a number of people

protesting about links and a recognition that we didn't know where links went. It was an accumulation of things that lead us to believe we just needed to stop it.
HH in this case, wasn't a specific link, a link to Yammer post, a sign posted endorsement to the books
CA yes

It occurred in interim period, July 2023, before Viva Engage, it would appear that SEEN are moderating themselves,
J you've asked that already
CA they were moderating selves, but still a channel to the moderation channel
J it's confusing, seems that SEEN were

Hang on a minute I thought the judge wasn't going to let NC show them the book! But here's HH reading it aloud.

CA point is she has not seen the book so why ask her about it

Love this, but quoted to add that I love your username!💖

Possibly trying to use her answer to paint her as GC so she was biased?

From TT:

moderating
AL witness has explained, I think
CA they were going to training and thinking this is what we are doing, but not everybody had had the training so we wanted to wait until Aug 2023
HH describes how link to MBIM made her feel, like a problem to be solved with education,

feels unsafe, among colleagues,
CA yes
HH you saw the C's evidence about this, distress, you don't doubt that do you
CA no not at all
HH there were links to the book but were removed was that your understanding
CA I don't know
HH you say that you weren't aware of nature of

JH g/x appeal conclusion, but were you broadly aware of recs to protect C and trans colleagues from harassment
CA I did not
J the witness was asked about that and she said didn't know
HH how was this continued endorsement would create a hostile environment for trans people

HH keeps trying to establish that the very existence of things is harmful and transphobic so we can now agree, I think, that the whole strategy of this ET is to try and relitigate Forstater. Whatever the panel decides in their judgment HH will be instructed to find a way to take this to an EAT in the hope that with a different panel there they will get a contradictory judgment. Given what we have seen about the disparate judgments across the board its not unimaginable that an EAT board could find a loophole to suit TRAs.

I suppose it might be worth it to get clarity on what is meant by can't misgender with impunity. I think things have progressed much further now and misgendering would be argued against anyway, in a way that it perhaps wasn't at the time of Forstater.

But I think that is clearly the strategy because we can all clearly see that DEFRA did well in the face of it generally speaking. They wanted to allow space for SEEN discussions and had to rely to a reasonable degree on their staff behaving like grown ups. The space is not equal between GC and TRA but the only straw they are grasping on for nehaviour of SEEN being somehow worse than behavour of TRAs (because GRA is not a belief, in their word, it is therefore a sacred cow) is AM's slightly frustrated tweets and, perhaps, early inflience on one post being removed. There is nothing, nothing to demonstrate CA and NB weren't doing the best in adapting and adjusting processes to serve a non captured space. Well done EW and AM for being the voices willing to have those conversations and being present. If they hadn't done so DEFRA and the civil service would have done nothing. Sod all.

Anyhoo, back to the point. If J finds for C or not HH wants him to say in his J something about GC ideas being inherently not WORIADS which I doubt he will do although there is perhaps some possibility that he might.

HH now, on to changes in PoC, no links to external sites, is that because of links re Mumsnet issue

More mud slinging does she really think staff were linking to MN in their comments in work time? FFS.
More likely Wikipedia and Stonewall

HH describes how link to MBIM made her feel, like a problem to be solved with education, feels unsafe, among colleagues,

How bloody fragile is this guy?