Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 7

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5551375-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-6

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

It's going to take all friggin' morning isn't it...for HH to labour over her questioning of CA.

I wonder if NC will deliberately use the word toxic at some point to see if the judge objects to her use of it

It’s obiter (obiter dicta) I believe.

Yes, I think NC is making careful note of words HH is allowed and will test them out. Evidence for appeal.

From TT:

HH TransgenderTrend link. Did you click through
CA No didn't go to links to others either - [mentions Stonewall, Gires etc]
HH It's not just balance to mention three on each side.
HH But TransgenderTrend - doesn't the name imply it's just a trend.
HH to C WS

[I think it's C WS - confusion about people finding docs]
HH Extracts from TTrend website. Home page, first para indicates no reliable scientific basis for diagnosis of transgender.
HH Please read what about people who knew they were t from v young age.

HH Message of this org is being t is something you can grow out of
AL Witness said didn't follow link - so superfluous
J Witness has said in her view post balanced. Links to orgs on both side on debate. TTrend on GC side of debate, Stonewall on other. Not sure how helps

HH you should have checked links
CA No don't agree. Adults can decide what they look at and what they don't, and decide themselves what they think of what they look at.
HH Posting links to org that suggests can grow out of being t is going to be offensive to t people

My note: this is desperate stuff...

Interestingly, both ST and ED seem to have strenuously avoided using the words "bigot" or "toxic" in their witness statements.

edit: an s

This line from HH is only emphasising what a disruptive, corrosive, even [the judge would pick me up on that😏] effect GI had in the DEFRA workplace, as in others.
As CA said, they already had system in place to moderate comms, which appear to have worked fine until along came ST&Co. and their fragile feelings.

NC Did I hear correctly - was that concern and disgust

Love it!

J Witness has said in her view post balanced. Links to orgs on both side on debate. TTrend on GC side of debate, Stonewall on other. Not sure how helps

Sometimes he does interject in the right place.

From TT:

CA I'm not sure this is what it is saying. And am aware that things Stonewall publish can be offensive to GC people. We stopped ability to post links to other websites. Orgs on both sides that others dislike intensely, but people can choose what they look at and what

they make of it.
HH Whatever Stonewall may post isn't relevant. My q is c this is offensive to t people.
J Witness has answered
HH To Matt Walsh post
J Going on to new subject?
HH Yes
J We'll have a break. Back at 11.40. If no clerk pls make your way in. We'll be here.
[ends]

@WomanInnaWoods

I can't even imagine how some of these current self inflicted legal minefields must come across to you sometimes!

I had two things going for me - I was (am) a mathematician who escaped into the wild and an important part of my job was 'if the client does X, what happens next'.

I was ignoring trans until my DH pointed out that the athlete formerly known as B Jenner had won 'Woman of the Year' and if women did not get their shit together we would lose the right to vote in 20 years. A rhetorical flourish but his point was that if we lose the word woman, we lose the ability to identify ourselves and fight for our rights.

I started paying attention and was very alarmed very quickly.

And here I am.

WomanInnaWoods · Yesterday 11:30
posted extracts from TT which show the judge objecting to NC using 'bigot', but allowing HH use it - no apparent differences in the context of the word to justify his inconsistency.

There's a dent in my living room wall where I have vicariously been banging my head on CA's behalf.

HH Whatever Stonewall may post isn't relevant. My q is c this is offensive to t people.

🙄

Thanks!
Whether or not conduct in a given situation does amount to harassment or discrimination within the meaning of EqA will be for a tribunal to determine in a given case.

Considering that the current version of the ETBB says that witnesses can't be forced to use specific pronouns, that should mean the bar for pronouns as possible d/h has been judicially decided to be rather high, so are the TAs just flogging a dead horse here?

HH But TransgenderTrend - doesn't the name imply it's just a trend.

It clearly is a trend, because as CA. says their systems had been working perfectly well up until recently.

Sorry, I didn't catch it.

May not have been a witness statement, but somewhere else in the bundle. Anyway, I'll shut up. [For now!]

Perhaps the CS can have a separate building where people who want to bring their whole selves to work and expect to experience no 'harm or distress' (however that is defined) can all exist together in peace and harmony.

I wonder how long such a workplace would survive before one grouping became more equal than the others?

I wonder how much work would get done?

Is CA the last witness before Elspeth?

Imagine having to sit through all this (though I appreciate that some of you probably are if you are listening remotely)!

CA No don't agree. Adults can decide what they look at and what they don't, and decide themselves what they think of what they look at.

She's great, I wish I could see the proceeedings and hear it myself.

Good idea! It could have padded walls and a bouncy castle

I'll bet that's underlying this.

She has intentionally and specifically drawn the J's attention to the word 'toxic', and questioned if he's going to stop it. He's said no.

Money on NC getting that word equally intentionally in to her next set of questions, and noting what he does.

And a civil service branded version of the toy where you bash wooden shapes through holes so everyone would have something to do

It may be worth applying although the link might not come through in time to see the rest of her evidence. The number of observers is, and always has been, well below their self imposed limit of 40.