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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 6

1000 replies

myladydisdainisyetliving · 07/07/2026 01:35

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5549959-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-5

TT substack: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

Please note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Tallisker · 07/07/2026 17:09

MyrtleLion · 07/07/2026 17:03

NC - Trans colleagues were doing everything in their power to silence GC colleagues?
NB - Certainly wanted limits

Well, they managed to “limit” them, by getting the posts removed. Or, as I like to term it, by “silencing” them.

I had genuinely thought that the posts were removed for being a teeny tiny bit prejudicial towards trans people - clowns for examples - but no, they were fine, but the shit-posting on the posts was so bad the posts were removed.

Talk about rewarding bad behaviour.

The clowns one and other rude ones were not on the work system, they were on an anonymised account on Twitter. The zealots tracked to account to Andreas.

StellaAndCrow · 07/07/2026 17:12

HH accounts from various attendees at open board meeting, various descriptions, DEFRA as a demeaning workplace for anyone trans because of SEEN, so ashamed to be employed by DEFRA, feedback also recorded that SH supported colleagues who wanted to express GC views and supported
creation of network. You don't recall seeing this document but were you aware of those views?
NB yes
HH you were aware that trans staff were expressing feelings of nausea, anxiety, shame, feeling unsafe

Ah, I can see that I'm just going to be going through this whole thing shouting FOR FUCK SAKE!

MarieDeGournay · 07/07/2026 17:13

MyrtleLion · 07/07/2026 17:03

NC - Trans colleagues were doing everything in their power to silence GC colleagues?
NB - Certainly wanted limits

Well, they managed to “limit” them, by getting the posts removed. Or, as I like to term it, by “silencing” them.

I had genuinely thought that the posts were removed for being a teeny tiny bit prejudicial towards trans people - clowns for examples - but no, they were fine, but the shit-posting on the posts was so bad the posts were removed.

Talk about rewarding bad behaviour.

Yeah I got that wrong too, I thought the 'clowns' posts etc were on work Yammer, and I don't think they would be appropriate there.
But now I know that they weren't on Y at all, I've realised my mistake and I hope the panel ,if not the judge🙄, have got that loud and clear in their heads now,

Wishesandhorses · 07/07/2026 17:13

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 07/07/2026 17:01

OK, let me see if I've understood the story so far.....

"EDW set up a nasty transphobic SEEN network. Then the nasty transphobes who work in HR at DEFRA help her write a careful post which is very neutral on the surface but really we all know it's just full of nasty transphobic dogwhistles.

So all the poor harmed trans people and all their allies naturally get very distressed and upset and angry (as any reasonable person would) and they are provoked into hitting back hard with floods of nasty responses. And the thread gets deleted.

So the pile-on is really the fault of those evil rightwing transphobes, including the biassed ignorant senior HR people that brave warriors like ST are up against."

Amiright judge?

'If you didn't provoke me, I wouldn't have to batter you.'

Boiledbeetle · 07/07/2026 17:16

Wishesandhorses · 07/07/2026 16:58

NC - Have you ever encountered a post with GI belief me with such inappropriate response it had to be taken down?
NB - Can't think of one no

Slam dunk.

If an already checked by people on high and OK'd post about a legally held point of view is met with such derision and hatred by an element of your staff I know who should be shut down and kicked out. And it's not SEEN.

SexIsReal · 07/07/2026 17:18

MyrtleLion · 07/07/2026 16:59

I imagine Mr NC has a very large G&T, heavy on the G and heavy on the ice (because weather), waiting to be put into NC’s hand the very second she walks in the door.

Edited

I think she’s in Leeds for the duration. No kind Mr to bring a drink. 🥲

ItsCoolForCats · 07/07/2026 17:29

This is partly tribunal fatigue and partly exasperation that we are still going through this, but I am feeling very disheartened today. Sometimes sex matters when it comes to law and policy. This shouldn't be controversial and it is not hateful to say so.

All of the hyperbolic language about the distress that SEEN has caused by existing as a network has really pissed me off. And the rampant bullying by TRAs is seen as justified because they are "allies".

Initially, I was feeling more optimistic about the judge because he was asking insightful questions, but today just felt very one-sided. Will all of this ever end? It's just one battle after another 🙁

MyrtleLion · 07/07/2026 17:34

Tallisker · 07/07/2026 17:09

The clowns one and other rude ones were not on the work system, they were on an anonymised account on Twitter. The zealots tracked to account to Andreas.

I’m aware the clowns post was on Twitter, what I meant was maybe the GC posts that were taken down were similar in that they said something like that - a bit disrespectful but not “all trans people are paedophiles” or even “isn’t it interesting how the leaders of Pride end up in jail convicted of sexual assault”.

But no, just something like, we know it might not be popular but we believe sex is binary, sorry if anyone gets a bit upset about that, we don’t want to offend and we’re actually very nice women.

MarieDeGournay · 07/07/2026 17:35

SexIsReal · 07/07/2026 17:18

I think she’s in Leeds for the duration. No kind Mr to bring a drink. 🥲

So more like this?

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dTqolrVIJs

CriticalCondition · 07/07/2026 17:36

I know it absolutely won't happen because they are both consummate professionals and it would probably breach all sorts of codes of practice. But I'd love to think of NB and NC meeting up for a drink when this is all properly over. Sharing a few G&Ts and wearing 'Integrity, Impartiality, Legality' T-shirts.

fanOfBen · 07/07/2026 17:54

CriticalCondition · 07/07/2026 17:36

I know it absolutely won't happen because they are both consummate professionals and it would probably breach all sorts of codes of practice. But I'd love to think of NB and NC meeting up for a drink when this is all properly over. Sharing a few G&Ts and wearing 'Integrity, Impartiality, Legality' T-shirts.

Why would this breach anyone's code of practice, after it's properly over? It's not as though the two of them would ever expect to encounter one another professionally again.

(Just catching up, thank you TT and @myladydisdainisyetliving . My walk was much better for my health than following along would have been, I see!)

dementedpixie · 07/07/2026 17:55

Thanks to the C&P team. Just marking a place as I keep losing the thread.

Wishesandhorses · 07/07/2026 18:00

ItsCoolForCats · 07/07/2026 17:29

This is partly tribunal fatigue and partly exasperation that we are still going through this, but I am feeling very disheartened today. Sometimes sex matters when it comes to law and policy. This shouldn't be controversial and it is not hateful to say so.

All of the hyperbolic language about the distress that SEEN has caused by existing as a network has really pissed me off. And the rampant bullying by TRAs is seen as justified because they are "allies".

Initially, I was feeling more optimistic about the judge because he was asking insightful questions, but today just felt very one-sided. Will all of this ever end? It's just one battle after another 🙁

It is whackamole. It's the nature of the activists driving it. So long as this kind of vexatious behaviour is indulged, there will be endless attempts to undo boundaries and manipulate the system.

We're a broke country, looking at ridiculous taxes to try and sort out defence as the world gets a lot hotter - this kind of expensive nonsense really has to stop. But too many MPs are currently activists themselves, with all the problems so often found among activists.

SinnerBoy · 07/07/2026 18:03

myladydisdainisyetliving

We judged and moderated and saw thread spiralling into very negative place

NC - Have you ever encountered a post with GI belief me with such inappropriate response it had to be taken down?

NB - Can't think of one no

And there we have it. In a reasonable world, that's Stinkerbell's case kicked into a cocked hat, in the bin and buried under 8 feet of landfill.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 07/07/2026 18:08

StellaAndCrow · 07/07/2026 17:07

OK I managed to get this far, then was stopped in my tracks by

HH trans colleagues can't speak up can they
NB of course they can, they have a range of ways to speak up, they can respond over Y, they can complain, they can talk with line manager,
HH going to move on to new topic, para 14, attendance at LGBT+ open board meeting,

Trans people can't speak up?!? TRANS people??? Seriously???

We never stop hearing from trans people!

Yes but nobody listens to them. It's all a secret.

Biscofffan · 07/07/2026 18:09

What a waste of a whole frigging day - HH asking the same question over and over using hyperbolic language. NC makes her point succinctly in a few minutes at the end. Ridiculous. And frustrating.

myladydisdainisyetliving · 07/07/2026 18:12

My current theory on the judge - he’s very very old school. At times he has sounded like a tutor or coach when giving directions to all three barristers. Maybe as a retired judge he feels duty bound to keep up the standards in the legal profession and the young whipper snappers coming up behind him. He certainly doesn’t seem to tolerate any wording in questions that he perceives as rhetoric.

I also think he doesn’t like cases with intervenors - he admitted today to NC he’d forgotten she should have the opportunity to question NB. Maybe that’s why he was so tetchy with her as he’d let HH witter drivel and circle the drain all day on the assumption the witness would be finished and we’d be moving on to the next one tomorrow morning. Now his timetable is out again.

I also think he personally doesn’t like NC - whether that’s her reputation or her clear, no nonsense RP voice asking blunt questions, or just plain old fashioned misogyny, who knows.

OP posts:
ProfLargofesse · 07/07/2026 18:13

MarieDeGournay · 07/07/2026 16:32

I see 'countless' is acceptable now, the judge queried it before.
Disappointed to see NB using it, apart from not being accurate, it also gives the impression that there were hundreds of 'hostile comments' on SEEN, when the reality is more likely that there were many not countless' comments that trans colleagues didn't like, which may or may not have merited the description of 'hostile'.

I think you've misunderstood. The countless hostile comments were not from GC members but from TRAs vociferously objecting to SEEN's reasonable position. SEEN had done nothing wrong but the post plus comments were taken down because TRAs were behaving badly.

Rightsraptor · 07/07/2026 18:20

SexIsReal · 07/07/2026 17:18

I think she’s in Leeds for the duration. No kind Mr to bring a drink. 🥲

Plenty of Leeds terfs to bring her a drink though.🍷

ProfLargofesse · 07/07/2026 18:47

Just caught up and thanks all for your magnificence for what was a hard day of listening to HH.

I have a new theory.

I think the J is desperately trying to find points he can argue. I think he has concluded on reading the detail in the bundle that there is no actual case to answer from either Rs but given the hostile environment re TRAs, which is fairly evident from the bundle, he is leery of an appeal from them and is anticipating his every action being poured over by the appeal team who he expects to err on the side of Stonewall Training.

He is not anticipating finding for ST which is why he is not concerned about an appeal from the Rs, and which is why he is getting frustrated with the intervenor process. He kinda thinks they've won already because the case is mostly nonsense and doesn't need their input (he thinks that - not me - is my suggestion. From my PoV he clearly does need their interventions because he is forgetting that the points need addressed even if he knows full well there is no case.

I think that makes sense of his interventions. I don't think he is biased per se, although I think the legacy of Stonewall Training has left an imprint, but I think he knows he will be finding for Rs and is shaping his interventions within that paradigm.

Going back to my point about desperately trying to find points he can argue: I think he wants to present a judgment that carries an appearance of weighing up the C's case as a reasonable one which is why he interrogated NB today about whether she agreed or disagreed with JH's outcome letter.

To me, NB had made clear in her WS that JH had asked for her involvement, NB had clarified points of law and JH had purposefully not consulted her before distributing the outcome letter because she knew NB would ensure it was more qualified. It would help J argue a point of process if he takes the position that JH had been given the necessary authority to produce the outcome letter and that any intervention from NB was uncalled for and beyond her remit. That in itself wouldn't be a failure of process given the disagreement was about adherance to the law, but he could argue that having been given an outcome letter fully supporting his position it must have been upsetting for the recommendations not to be implemented and that was, in itself, a rational justification for bringing it to ET. For all that I think the J knows that doesn't amount to harassment, or hostile working environment, but must have caused confusion and upset. I think J will use that as an opportunity to criticise comms within Defra HR as a mitigation to C in the j overall.

If I'm right then that will be very useful to TRAs even if ST case isn't found.

It seems to be that HH's main argument is that there is a hierarchy of PCs and that by not recognising the generally agreed Stonewall Law position that GRA sits atop that hierarchy, NB has created a hostile working environment for TRAs. It might be reasonable to find that is the case because this is not an ET about a hostile working environment for women, but for TRAs. However, I don't think the J will find that as it would be BOLD judge who would assert that any organisation shouldn't be seeking to pursue a balancing of PCs.

I think the heckler's veto that NC has introduced will be a new idea for j because I don't think she mentioned that in her opening submission?

I also think that her making clear that the bad behaviour was coming from the TRAs is new to the j and crucial because the careful use of language across the WS totally avoids saying that. This is of course fascinating. The fear that permeates through all the discourse is that no one can say the main problem is not SEEN but in coping with the TRAs. NB was so insistent on declaring ST a delight to work with but all evidence is to the contrary. Not only his stalled career but his constant harassment of SEEN colleagues, his seeking material he says is the catalyst for his harassment when he has been advised not to, his refusal to understand the context within which colleagues are working through his g/x. I cannot believe there is any aspect of working with him that is a delight. NB has, of course, never worked 'wtih' ST but only had a couple of meetings with him so it is an easy white lie for her to make and demonstrates the powerful fear underpinning so much of the careful approach.

For all that she has managed to hit home key points in amongst HHs desperate attempts to shore up a weak case. I am not an expert but it seems like desperation can make barristers willing to lie in court. JR was the same in the SP case but HH is actually outright lying. GIven the J's desperation in trying to find reasonable points he can argue he has given her way too much leeway.

I no longer am upset by this as much as I was because of my reasoning above but also I've given up caring. They can all fucking go to hell in a handbasket. It couldn't be any clearer that all the wimmins are working very hard to make the menz happy. Even NB. She did her job well but the delight to work with comment is a clearly a lie to all extents and purposes and it stuck in my craw.

AM was a breath of fresh air as he was just not having it. He used his personal SM to declare he wasn't having it and even here we are not allowing it, labelling it unwise. Which again demonstrates how far under the cosh we all are. His posts weren't bad. They demonstrated frustration at the authority given to individuals who have neither earned it or should ever be allowed near it.

DauntlessDamson · 07/07/2026 19:34

@ProfLargofesse

Thank you for this analysis. It did seem to me today that the judge was being lenient with HH's questions because, unlike previous days, they were being countered by clear answers from NB, who kept coming back to the need to follow due process and regulations - and demonstrating the occasions when this had happened. This exchange in particular intrigued me:

NB - Not entirely. We did set out different control mechanism that meant groups managed moderation within. Provided training and route of escalation amd oversight with moderation panel. Not left to groups entirely to be operated independently under own devices
J - what does moderation process mean?
NB - oversight by moderation panel
J - you use careful language. Can you explain what escalation and oversight meant?
NB - escalation meant if group could not reach decision for themselves they can use moderation panel. And oversight means panel can look at their decision making.
J - if they disagreed what would they do
NB - change the decision

It seemed to me that he was almost looking for a clear form of words that he could include in his judgement, which would show that due process had been followed.

Justabaker · 07/07/2026 19:34

I think there's a lot of sense in your analysis @ProfLargofesse and I'll add one thing.

He's taken what feel like a personal dislike to NC. The 'demonise' incident was a new low in directive use of language.

Boiledbeetle · 07/07/2026 19:39

Justabaker · 07/07/2026 19:34

I think there's a lot of sense in your analysis @ProfLargofesse and I'll add one thing.

He's taken what feel like a personal dislike to NC. The 'demonise' incident was a new low in directive use of language.

I'm only reading not watching this tribunal and just from the Tribunal Tweets it came across as if he'd decided he didn't like her before she even opened her mouth.

DauntlessDamson · 07/07/2026 19:42

I would also love to know whether there have been any formal allegations of bullying against ST and if so, what was the outcome.

Justabaker · 07/07/2026 19:47

DauntlessDamson · 07/07/2026 19:42

I would also love to know whether there have been any formal allegations of bullying against ST and if so, what was the outcome.

Who would dare make an allegation of bullying against the cry bully?

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