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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why do some feminists oppose misogyny but support gender ideology?

803 replies

Doodwhatareyou · 05/07/2026 18:12

I recently ended up in the man hating side of tiktok, which is a place I tend to be in agreement with. I’ve seen several women bravely battle stupid men in the comments who manage to reinforce everything being said.

I’ve seen a pattern though that these women, who seem to be very up on rules of misogyny, and aware of how problematic too many men are, usually have pronouns in their bio, and occasionally will complain about being bullied by terfs.

I’m baffled.

How can they be so up on patriarchal nonsense yet miss the fundamental misogyny in gender ideology. How can they deny the evidence that trans identified men are just as much of a problem for women if not more as they want women’s rights and spaces.

They can make endless videos about how hateful men are because of the way women are treated, and how women have to budge up and make room, yet trans identified men are women, and anyone who says otherwise is a massive bigot. I don’t understand.

OP posts:
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rocer · 09/07/2026 09:14

Baileyonice · 08/07/2026 23:21

Even your AI agrees that's a circular definition as I said.

So AI = good when it agrees with you?

In any case, it depends on the framework according to the link. Here's a more detailed explanation that fleshes it out. Let me know what you think.

lastreviotheory.medium.com/why-a-woman-is-someone-who-identifies-as-a-woman-is-not-a-meaningless-statement-467d18f0400a

AI = good when it agrees with you?
Is a stopped clock a good timekeeper twice a day? - No. (Why not? Left as (simple!) exercise.)

Let me know what you think.
I think you're a bit silly ... and you find it difficult to follow an argument. Possibly the two are linked?

Baileyonice · 09/07/2026 09:16

JanesLittleGirl · 09/07/2026 09:02

I think that you are right. It is as if he can only hold one trite notion in his head at a time.

Peanut gallery alert. 🥜

Baileyonice · 09/07/2026 09:17

rocer · 09/07/2026 09:14

AI = good when it agrees with you?
Is a stopped clock a good timekeeper twice a day? - No. (Why not? Left as (simple!) exercise.)

Let me know what you think.
I think you're a bit silly ... and you find it difficult to follow an argument. Possibly the two are linked?

🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔

Shortshriftandlethal · 09/07/2026 09:22

Lexibletheflexible · 08/07/2026 08:24

That's your opinion. Other people feel differently because they believe trans women are women so "men" don't come into their thinking at all.

This is the hurdle you have to get over. TI feminists do not see trans women as men.

I suggest that is the hurdle you have to get over; and it is a pretty big one, because perceptions matter, and most people, and all societies, recognise the differences between males and females.......

.......because they are an actual thing; a measurable, definable thing; a thing that has existed for all of time on Planet Earth, and which, as a result is hard-wired in - not only in terms of biological fiunction and reproduction, but also in human perception and instinct. Even some creatures can tell the difference between human males and human females, as well as between males and females of their own species, naturally.

You have signed up to a niche and transient philosphy of 'Self' - which will lose its appeal with time. Men are not women because they are males and because 'a woman' is the term commonly used, in english, for an adult human female.

And we all, including you, know this. It must be hard work to keep afloat an idea that you know is not really true.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/07/2026 09:30

Poor old Bailey. Still scolding and sneering at women after all this time. Just because we understand biology, facts and what a woman is.

Rather sad to see someone spending so much time endlessly posting their fantasies and instructions in a place where women gather to speak. Thanks to all of you who bother to engage and point out all the flaws in his arguments. Flowers

Shortshriftandlethal · 09/07/2026 10:06

Baileyonice · 08/07/2026 10:05

Well said.

For those of us that have experienced gender inequality (for me it was my own family preventing my education because of my sex) many of us relate to feminism in terms of renouncing biological essentialism. Psychological interchangeability being the justification for gender equality makes it the centrepiece of feminism.

For me, I see trans people as a great example of gender interchangeability between the sexes..& its why they are the natural enemy of the patriarchy.

That's not to say natal sex isn't important in facilitating fairness rather its not the big enchilada when it comes to gender equality.

Rather I suggest that when we have more equality of opportunity between the sexes then what you are calling 'gender interchangeability' is the result...because what you are calling 'gender' is really just personality preferences and characteristics of which there is a natural cross-over between the sexes.

When women ( it generally tends to be women) have equal rights in law, it tends to follow that their choices in life are not totally socially prescribed on the basis of their reprodcutive function. For example, women can now have a mortgage in their own right; they can continue to work after marriage; they can go to university; they can follow almost any interest or hobby of their choice; and can pursue almost any occupation; can wear clothing styles of their choosing; can have short hair if they choose; can have long hair if they choose; can even shave their head if they choose.

There are now ( in our culture) female astronauts; presidents of nations; car mechanics; soldiers; mountaineers; footballers; women who choose to stay at home when their children are young; women who have four young children but are the CEO of a large football club; women who are same sex attracted and are married to another woman; women who are millionnaires in their own right and can choose to do anything they please; women who love to bake in their spare time; women who are handy with a sewing machine; women who like to dress up as superheroes and heroines; women who like gaming; women who love clothes and make-up and wearing pretty ball gowns.....

What you are calling 'Gender' is nothing but personal inclination and preference of which there is a large cross-over between the sexes.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/07/2026 15:53

Something I find interesting in a vague way is that almost every woman I know "cross dresses", in that they all wear "masculine" attire quite a lot: trousers of one sort or another and not-particularly-feminine shirts or jumpers depending on the season, and very few indeed wear high heels unless they are dressing up for work or to go out; lower heels for dogwalking or messing about in leisure time or going shopping is quite usual.

And yet none of them asserts she is male because of this preference in attire.

Whereas it seems as though practically any man these days who wears anything feminine has to assert that he is female because he cross-dresses. When all he actually does is put on a dress.

It's ridiculous, and I don't think they realise how utterly absurd it makes them sound.

(Memories of the train drivers in was it Sweden, who insisted on wearing the women's uniform skirts in the summer because they were so much cooler than the men's uniform trousers. They managed this without claiming the skirts magically made them into women. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22828150 )

Driver Martin Akersten

Sweden male train drivers wear skirts after shorts row

A dozen male train drivers in Sweden are rebelling against a ban on wearing shorts in hot weather by coming to work in skirts instead.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22828150

Shedmistress · 09/07/2026 16:55

I dont even own heels or tights. Or any make-up. And yet go to restaurants and dont get kicked out the female toilets. Weird.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/07/2026 16:57

Shedmistress · 09/07/2026 16:55

I dont even own heels or tights. Or any make-up. And yet go to restaurants and dont get kicked out the female toilets. Weird.

Well, ditto. I think I have a pair of tights somewhere....

UtopiaPlanitia · 09/07/2026 18:23

When I was studying Feminist Political Thought at Uni, our tutorial group had one male student. He spent his time trying to monopolise discussions, declaring that most feminist thought was stupid and silly or completely pointless, he was convinced that only HIS interpretation of anything was correct (even if he'd misunderstood it), he spent a lot of time explaining womanhood to actual women and ignoring us recounting our life experiences, he didn't like women challenging him at all and he got very angry when it was pointed out where he was wrong. We were all completely puzzled as to why he bothered to take the subject...well, we had a few theories as to why 😁

I wonder why after all these years this chap has popped up in my memory....?

DrBlackbird · 09/07/2026 21:45

Isn’t it about time to stop engaging with the fractious toddler? It’s giving them more air time than the nonsensical posts deserve and rewards bad manners.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/07/2026 21:47

I suggested that last week some time....

DrBlackbird · 09/07/2026 22:30

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 09/07/2026 21:47

I suggested that last week some time....

Definitely seconding your suggestion. It’s tempting to try to point out the massive gaps in logic but the repetitive rudeness and hyperbole is tiresome as well as pointless. Lurkers more likely to switch off than anything else.

Baileyonice · Yesterday 01:26

Shortshriftandlethal · 09/07/2026 09:22

I suggest that is the hurdle you have to get over; and it is a pretty big one, because perceptions matter, and most people, and all societies, recognise the differences between males and females.......

.......because they are an actual thing; a measurable, definable thing; a thing that has existed for all of time on Planet Earth, and which, as a result is hard-wired in - not only in terms of biological fiunction and reproduction, but also in human perception and instinct. Even some creatures can tell the difference between human males and human females, as well as between males and females of their own species, naturally.

You have signed up to a niche and transient philosphy of 'Self' - which will lose its appeal with time. Men are not women because they are males and because 'a woman' is the term commonly used, in english, for an adult human female.

And we all, including you, know this. It must be hard work to keep afloat an idea that you know is not really true.

Edited

You have signed up to a niche and transient philosphy of 'Self' - which will lose its appeal with time.

Of all the unscientific fanciful notions, this one takes the cake.

The idea that gender non conformity is just a 'fashion' & will go way is a monumentally unscientific fantasy. All the hyperbolic hyperventilating in the world over word ownership, stereotypes, children's & women's 'safety' won't change the fact that gender non conformity is as old as time & clearly here to stay because its inherent in the human form. What we are witnessing right now with the increase in visibility of gender non conformity identification is the consequences of the social acceptance of this human condition's inevitability.

Now the boomer class might be able to throw a few road block to slow things down temporarily, but they won't be able to stop this tide coming in. And with their soon to be passing so to will the tail end of resistance. There’ll be a few last desperate gasps of life from the ageing stalwarts aided & abetted by far right political opportunists but it won't ever be enough because you can't stop humans being human.

And you see this same denial pattern repeated with this desperate fear of immigration 'erasing whites'. That the mathematics of 8.3 billion people in the world with only 1.3 billion being white making 'erasing' inevitable doesn't seem to occur to them but resist they will…all for nought.

Baileyonice · Yesterday 01:38

Shortshriftandlethal · 09/07/2026 10:06

Rather I suggest that when we have more equality of opportunity between the sexes then what you are calling 'gender interchangeability' is the result...because what you are calling 'gender' is really just personality preferences and characteristics of which there is a natural cross-over between the sexes.

When women ( it generally tends to be women) have equal rights in law, it tends to follow that their choices in life are not totally socially prescribed on the basis of their reprodcutive function. For example, women can now have a mortgage in their own right; they can continue to work after marriage; they can go to university; they can follow almost any interest or hobby of their choice; and can pursue almost any occupation; can wear clothing styles of their choosing; can have short hair if they choose; can have long hair if they choose; can even shave their head if they choose.

There are now ( in our culture) female astronauts; presidents of nations; car mechanics; soldiers; mountaineers; footballers; women who choose to stay at home when their children are young; women who have four young children but are the CEO of a large football club; women who are same sex attracted and are married to another woman; women who are millionnaires in their own right and can choose to do anything they please; women who love to bake in their spare time; women who are handy with a sewing machine; women who like to dress up as superheroes and heroines; women who like gaming; women who love clothes and make-up and wearing pretty ball gowns.....

What you are calling 'Gender' is nothing but personal inclination and preference of which there is a large cross-over between the sexes.

The point you are missing is the equal rights in law only followed from an appreciation & acknowledgment of the psychological & cognitive interchangeability between the sexes. There's a reason why monkeys & other binary reproductive organisms don't qualify for the same rights as humans & it's not only because we don't look the same.

That you are under the false impression that the legitimacy of gender equality was underpinned by differences & not commonalities is delusional but not unsurprising for reproductive biological worshipers.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 02:37

DrBlackbird · 09/07/2026 22:30

Definitely seconding your suggestion. It’s tempting to try to point out the massive gaps in logic but the repetitive rudeness and hyperbole is tiresome as well as pointless. Lurkers more likely to switch off than anything else.

Scrolling FTW

RD4U · Yesterday 05:48

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Seethlaw · Yesterday 05:51

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Oh hey, a new TRA!

No new argument, though.

EasternStandard · Yesterday 07:40

Baileyonice · Yesterday 01:26

You have signed up to a niche and transient philosphy of 'Self' - which will lose its appeal with time.

Of all the unscientific fanciful notions, this one takes the cake.

The idea that gender non conformity is just a 'fashion' & will go way is a monumentally unscientific fantasy. All the hyperbolic hyperventilating in the world over word ownership, stereotypes, children's & women's 'safety' won't change the fact that gender non conformity is as old as time & clearly here to stay because its inherent in the human form. What we are witnessing right now with the increase in visibility of gender non conformity identification is the consequences of the social acceptance of this human condition's inevitability.

Now the boomer class might be able to throw a few road block to slow things down temporarily, but they won't be able to stop this tide coming in. And with their soon to be passing so to will the tail end of resistance. There’ll be a few last desperate gasps of life from the ageing stalwarts aided & abetted by far right political opportunists but it won't ever be enough because you can't stop humans being human.

And you see this same denial pattern repeated with this desperate fear of immigration 'erasing whites'. That the mathematics of 8.3 billion people in the world with only 1.3 billion being white making 'erasing' inevitable doesn't seem to occur to them but resist they will…all for nought.

Can you actually define gender non conformity? Does a woman wearing trousers count?

A man wearing make up?

Can you give a list of what causes the change of sex in your view, if you really think TWAW

What women can wear has changed over time, new trends become normalised and no one has changed sex

What’s in and out as a signifier?

OldCrone · Yesterday 07:57

Baileyonice · Yesterday 01:26

You have signed up to a niche and transient philosphy of 'Self' - which will lose its appeal with time.

Of all the unscientific fanciful notions, this one takes the cake.

The idea that gender non conformity is just a 'fashion' & will go way is a monumentally unscientific fantasy. All the hyperbolic hyperventilating in the world over word ownership, stereotypes, children's & women's 'safety' won't change the fact that gender non conformity is as old as time & clearly here to stay because its inherent in the human form. What we are witnessing right now with the increase in visibility of gender non conformity identification is the consequences of the social acceptance of this human condition's inevitability.

Now the boomer class might be able to throw a few road block to slow things down temporarily, but they won't be able to stop this tide coming in. And with their soon to be passing so to will the tail end of resistance. There’ll be a few last desperate gasps of life from the ageing stalwarts aided & abetted by far right political opportunists but it won't ever be enough because you can't stop humans being human.

And you see this same denial pattern repeated with this desperate fear of immigration 'erasing whites'. That the mathematics of 8.3 billion people in the world with only 1.3 billion being white making 'erasing' inevitable doesn't seem to occur to them but resist they will…all for nought.

The idea that gender non conformity is just a 'fashion' & will go way is a monumentally unscientific fantasy.

Do you really think anyone here is saying this? If you think any of our objections are to do with gender nonconformity you've spectacularly missed the point.

Do you really think the women you're arguing with here are a bunch of tradwives and walking stereotypes of femininity? You have no idea how gender nonconforming any of us are.

But no matter how gender nonconforming someone is, at no point do they actually change sex.

Your next comment about "boomers" and how they'll all be dead soon indicates that you're too young to remember the 70s and 80s, when gender nonconformity was everywhere, in a way it no longer is now. And who were those gender nonconforming people? That's right, the people you now disparagingly call "boomers".

But none of us then thought that anything we did or wore made us the opposite sex, and we all knew which toilets we should use.

callmeLoretta1 · Yesterday 08:35

Idlewilder · 07/07/2026 13:27

That is literally just your opinion. Other opinions and definitions of feminism are available.

No, it is 'LiTerAlLy' (why are all trans activists deeply obsessed with the word 'literally'?) the truth. The only definition of FEMinism is that it centres and advocates for the rights of the FEMale sex. It is 'literally' in the name. No FEMinism centres the male sex at all, anywhere, ever.

Baileyonice · Yesterday 08:42

EasternStandard · Yesterday 07:40

Can you actually define gender non conformity? Does a woman wearing trousers count?

A man wearing make up?

Can you give a list of what causes the change of sex in your view, if you really think TWAW

What women can wear has changed over time, new trends become normalised and no one has changed sex

What’s in and out as a signifier?

As I have said repeatedly on this thread, gender (not sex!)is a personally subjective values based belief. In other words it's upto the individual & their perceptions. Just like it's up to you what you identify with which in your case is gametal sex.

callmeLoretta1 · Yesterday 08:42

Lexibletheflexible · 07/07/2026 14:28

The thing that you keep ignoring but is central to your argument, no matter how much you keep ignoring it is that if one believes that trans women are women, then including trans women in their feminist approach isnt centering men.

You can keep arguing but trans women are not women, but all that does is highlight your own feminist approach which isnt inclusive of trans women. It doesnt mean those who are trans inclusive aren't feminists, it means they have a different set of values and beliefs about how to best achieve equality for women. They arent the same type of feminist as you.

Feminists arent a monolith like women aren't a monolith.

What you don't understand is that this isn't about 'women'. It's about females. Hence, feminism. Feminism is about females.

No male is a female.

callmeLoretta1 · Yesterday 08:59

Lexibletheflexible · 07/07/2026 14:35

No you don't, thats the thing. Trans inclusive feminism is a legitimate branch of feminism. It doesnt matter how much you argue about it. Just like Marxist Socialism is a legitimate form of Socialism.

You won't change that. There are different types of feminism. That is like Feminism 101. You can absolutely restrict spaces to only welcome trans exlclusionary feminists, but that doesnt make either group "not feminists".

No, it is absolutely NOT legitimate at all. No feminism includes males. It's actually the whole point of feminism. It is about females, by females, for females.

What you're doing is akin to saying that some branches of the NAACP can include the KKK.

Btw I think you mean male exclusionary feminists. Feminism centres all females, that includes trans men. So therefore, it is not correct to say it's 'trans' exclusionary. Since trans men are included in feminism by default.

OldCrone · Yesterday 09:00

Baileyonice · Yesterday 08:42

As I have said repeatedly on this thread, gender (not sex!)is a personally subjective values based belief. In other words it's upto the individual & their perceptions. Just like it's up to you what you identify with which in your case is gametal sex.

Gender nonconformity is about ignoring the 'rules' which say that how someone should behave or dress depends on their sex.

You don't have to identify with anything to simply ignore the rules and get on with your life.

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