Why do some feminists oppose misogyny but support gender ideology?

[Doodwhatareyou]

I recently ended up in the man hating side of tiktok, which is a place I tend to be in agreement with. I’ve seen several women bravely battle stupid men in the comments who manage to reinforce everything being said.

I’ve seen a pattern though that these women, who seem to be very up on rules of misogyny, and aware of how problematic too many men are, usually have pronouns in their bio, and occasionally will complain about being bullied by terfs.

I’m baffled.

How can they be so up on patriarchal nonsense yet miss the fundamental misogyny in gender ideology. How can they deny the evidence that trans identified men are just as much of a problem for women if not more as they want women’s rights and spaces.

They can make endless videos about how hateful men are because of the way women are treated, and how women have to budge up and make room, yet trans identified men are women, and anyone who says otherwise is a massive bigot. I don’t understand.

It is like Ethical Vegans including some meat-eaters, because the meat-eaters identify as vegan.

They do define women. They just believe you don't have to be born female to identify as a woman and that identification is enough. The definition is clear: anyone who identifies as a woman is one. I dont get the point in pretending it's at all unclear. That seems like a waste of pixels

If you can't explain what 'feminism' means, then you might as well be arguing that there are different types of cheese.

No. That's nonsense.

Because it's based on some make believe that men can be women. Genuine poltical movements cannot be based on lies.

There cannot be a single person who looks at every man who claims to be a woman and says 'yep, he's definitely a woman'.

I don't believe that. I don't think, anyway. I think it might be true in rare cases. That's irrelevant though. Who cares what I think?

What I know to be a fact is that there are different types of feminism, of which both trans inclusionary and trans exclusionary feminism are part of.

So they're trying to define sex as being based on something other than sex.

Which is clearly a complete failure of logic

My identity is irrelevant to the services I need because I am female.

No amount of identifying as somebody else will help me to end an unwanted pregnancy (or control the circumstances where I might become pregnant).

I think some people might accept that even though someone looks male, they are a woman if they say they are.

I’d be interested in hearing an answer to this ^ i.e. how to achieve equality without defining women.

Unless the TRAs would fight for maternity rights or contraception access for men who say they’re women?

if one believes that trans women are women

As in, actual women? Like a magic wand has been waived? Or more ‘one believes that transwomen should be treated as women?

No, it's not 'trans exclusionary' - because feminism does include (actual) women who identify as trans.

Its 'men exclusionary'

'Men inclusive' feminism is an oxymoron

No, thats egalitarianism.

Feminism is specific to females.

I agree with this completely.

The problem is that most of our vulnerabilities come from biology itself.

Some younger and more naive women have only encountered misogyny in terms of, say, men being patronising or leching at work. Those things are based entirely on the woman's presentation, and so they can follow through that logic and say that any man who can make himself a facsimile of a young pretty woman would have all the same issues. This is where the TWAW logic stems from.

But unwanted flirting and being patronised are literally the LEAST of women's issues. Far bigger of a deal is our vulnerability during pregnancy and postpartum, our loss of earnings while postpartum, our difference in physical strength and size, the impact of periods and menopause on our health.

It is all these things that require us to have maternity protections, single sex prisons, single sex sports, single sex changing rooms.

Younger women who havent gone through all that have only had the "Smile, love" experience of misogyny, that some unicorn-like "passing" transwomen might also theoretically experience, and that's why they think TWAW.

Ok.

Some females will never have pregnancy as a risk to them so your point is totally irrelevant to why they believe self identity is enough to make someone a woman is they say they are.

You can put forwards all the points of why you believe trans women aren't women, but that doesnt detract from the topic of the thread. Trans inclusions feminists are feminists, just like you're a feminist. You just have different beliefs about equality and how to achieve it. And that is why a lot of trans inclusionary feminists will still have experiences and ideas that you relate to and support. They are also feminists (like you).

If a male says he is a woman then he quite categorically is not, being that he is a man, or a boy.

What it is, is just plain crazy. To think that a man can become a woman. And I’ll never understand the slogan TWAW because that is physically impossible.

The risk isnt because they might never have children.

The risk is because they are in the category of female.

Feminism recognises women as experiencing inequality, that is why most approaches to feminism prioritise centering women to overcome oppression. If it was about egalitarianism, womanhood would not be a factor.

So you don't believe 'transwomen' are women?

But you said:
You can keep arguing but trans women are not women, but all that does is highlight your own feminist approach which isnt inclusive of trans women.

Are you now saying that you don't believe transwomen are women?

Quite, a fact which you dont seem to understand.

You're ignoring the point. Your experiences and your routing vakues and belief arent universal among women. In a lot of places, they arent even close to universal. Therefore, the reasons why you believe trans women are not women are personal to you. Of course they guide what feminist approach you most resonate with, but that's about it. They don't make you more of or not a feminist at all, and the same goes for people who are trans inclusionary in their feminism.

You can debate why you think that isn't the best approach, just like Socialists debate the merits of Marxism in the context of Socialism, but Marxist Socialists are still Socialists and Socialists who are not Maxists are still Socialists.

They seem a bit better at accepting that, regardless of how heated debates may get.

I think the ones misunderstanding are the ones arguing about who is a "twue feminist" and who isn't.

It's like year 9 debate club.

We don't need to put forward 'all the points' of why transwomen aren't women.

Transwomen are male. Male people are called men or boys. Men are not women. That's it.

I agree. And Ethical Vegans who are meat-eaters are just as much true Vegans as those boring plant-based ones.

No. The reasons why transwomen are not women is because they are biologically men.

As I said upthread you can't suddenly decide to define sex via ... something other than sex.