Why do some feminists oppose misogyny but support gender ideology?

[Doodwhatareyou]

I recently ended up in the man hating side of tiktok, which is a place I tend to be in agreement with. I’ve seen several women bravely battle stupid men in the comments who manage to reinforce everything being said.

I’ve seen a pattern though that these women, who seem to be very up on rules of misogyny, and aware of how problematic too many men are, usually have pronouns in their bio, and occasionally will complain about being bullied by terfs.

I’m baffled.

How can they be so up on patriarchal nonsense yet miss the fundamental misogyny in gender ideology. How can they deny the evidence that trans identified men are just as much of a problem for women if not more as they want women’s rights and spaces.

They can make endless videos about how hateful men are because of the way women are treated, and how women have to budge up and make room, yet trans identified men are women, and anyone who says otherwise is a massive bigot. I don’t understand.

We have defined the word woman and we can talk about other areas of inequality

I don't know about that. TRAs got very far indeed with arguments such as "A good TERF is a dead TERF", "Punch a TERF", and so on. Instilling fear in people who would disagree with you is a very effective method indeed.

Not saying that GC people should do the same, not at all, just that thoroughly indecent arguments can also be helpful to a cause.

By all means, post about whichever other issue you want to discuss. Nobody's going to yell at you for posting a non-trans related thread.

A situation where we are discussing other topics. Workplace inequalities, how women are mostly still not equals in terms of childcare issues/role in family life/undervalued.

In a literal sense, the Latin prefix "trans" means "across," "beyond," or "on the other side of". It is frequently used as the direct opposite of the prefix "cis" which means "on the same side as".

The inference is across their natal sex.

Trans women are a sub set women via behavioural associations. Cis women are a subset of women via reproductive associations.

I could just about agree to disagree.

Trans women are a sub set women via behavioural associations. Cis women are a subset of women via reproductive associations.

Can't be, seeing as women are adult female human beings, which has everything to do with "reproductive associations" and nothing at all to do with "behavioural associations".

@Denim4ever : this is what we are talking about. You say that the word "woman" has been defined and it's time to move on. But as you can see up here, there are still many who argue that "woman" means something other than "woman".

If only biological reality could go back to being mundane. That would be an immeasurable shift towards redressing the crazy imbalance. All my students focus on the significance of feelings and identities, but it’d be better for them and us if that also includes focusing on critical thinking skills.

Before, I had only ~feelings~ ("I feel like I'm a man in a woman's body") and beliefs ("Trans men are men") and hopes ("We can all have what we want and live together - somehow"). Now I have hard facts and logic, and though it made my own situation more complicated, it also made the whole societal framework in my mind more solid and anchored. House built on the sand vs house built on the rock and all that :P

This juxtaposition of feelings + beliefs on one side and facts + logic on the other, is an excellent summary of the whole ‘debate’.

And I agree that ‘radicalised’ by MN is a misnomer. It has not radicalised me. Rather, the debates, hard questions, shared information, and facts about the negative impacts on women’s single sex spaces and on safeguarding children have helped articulate what I instinctively knew was wrong.

Just because they ‘believe’ something doesn’t mean it’s right. Or warrants respect in law.

The mere idea of being ‘a woman trapped in a man’s body’ is a line you’ve been sold my dear. Biologically it makes no sense. It only makes sense from the perspective of a diagnosis of body dysmorphia which is a psychological condition that used to require treatment, but like a lot of madness now, is considered something to indulge, and the ‘double suffering’ that you propose, is the inevitable consequence.

The lack of empathy I think you’ll find, lies clearly with the many and legion failures to care about girls and women. Just today the headlines are about rapists, peadophiles and sex offenders being given a free pass out of jail. There are daily atrocities being handed down to girls and women by a sheer lack of consideration for them. Many women have ‘doubly suffered’ by being hounded, cancelled, threatened, livelihoods and security lost just for saying sex is real. That’s where my empathy lies.

So let's just twist off at a tangent. I'm not even talking about those with men centred views let alone saying they are feminists.

Dismantling what it means to be a woman is absolutely fundamental to these points however. What happens to gender pay gap discussions when men can 'identify as women' and therefore muddy these waters sufficiently to make useful discussion impossible?

Oh dear, no one said that

Yes they are because I'm not talking about men centred views

Yes, but you are assuming that's what I'm talking about

'Mate' that's a blokey word

So you’re just here as the tone police?

to suggest we might discuss more widely and less wildly

Do feel free to tell us what you are talking about, because you are not providing clarity.

Again, definitions rely on social usage. Cambridge dic:

female
adjective
uk
/ˈfiː.meɪl/ us
/ˈfiː.meɪl/
female adjective (GENDER)
Add to word list
belonging or relating to women or girls:
She was voted the best female vocalist.
She was the school's first trans female athlete.

From Mem Web

sex
1 of 2
noun
ˈseks

Synonyms of sex
Simple DefinitionA Simple Definition is available from our Learner's Dictionary to help you understand the meaning faster.
1
a
: either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures

b
: the sum of the structural, functional, and sometimes behavioral characteristics of organisms that distinguish males and females

Missing the point here @Denim4ever

That's because "Feminism: Sex and gender discussions" was set up specifically to discuss this particularly topic.

If you want to discuss other feminist topics, you could try going to feminist chat: https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism

Or you could start your own thread here - no one will mind.

You can start threads on that. Gender ideology still influences, look at the PB trial on children.

Adults, especially men don’t give up lightly. They particularly don’t like it when women say no.

She was the school's first trans female athlete.

Not a very clear or useful example. Is a "trans female athlete" male or female?

Are you telling me that women should accept biological males in female prisons, refuges, sports for the benefit of womankind?

It feels like lots of talking around tone and quibbling about definitions. So, if either of you are inclined to share your thoughts on these example, it’d be really interesting to hear a clear, succinct answer.

You both accept and approve of men who identify as women, transwomen, accessing these spaces?

@Denim4ever ?

@Baileyonice ?

belonging or relating to women or girls:
She was voted the best female vocalist.
She was the school's first trans female athlete.

Indeed. Note how they had to specify "trans female" because "trans female" is not the same as "female".

: the sum of the structural, functional, and sometimes behavioral characteristics of organisms that distinguish males and females

Indeed: always structural and functional, and only sometimes behavioural. So yes, women may express behavioural characteristics of the female sex sometimes, but men can't, because they have neither the structural nor functional characteristics required in the first place.