Is being trans a 'disease'/mental health issue?

[SolveMyPrombles]

I'm asking on this board for deliberate considered responses so please do share your thoughts.

A lady on a local group has described being trans as a mental illness that should be treated with compassion not pandered to because it's a disease.

Looking into it more deeply I believe she's wrong and there is no current diagnostic manual that agrees with her take.

What do you think?

Going back to conversion therapy and times when being gay was illegal there are physical tests which will identify whether or not you are same sex attracted.

There is no equivalent test to show that you have been born in the wrong body. That is driven by damaging retrograde gender stereotyping.

So there is no comparison whatsoever between the historical fight for society to accept gay people in and the demands by trans activists that society acknowledges them as a sex that they cannot be.

You missed where I said "no general, worldwide consensus" but I expect that you meant to gloss over that.

And you were talking about terrorism and evangelism.

I mean the King is head of the Church of England and the Pope is the head of the Vatican City country so there are multiple examples of religion and power being used throughout history to encourage more people to be a certain religion. Crusades, missionaries, colonialism etc.

ok, so history:

King is head of the Church of England - does he openly collude in terrorism and evangelism?

the Pope is the head of the Vatican City country does he openly collude in terrorism and evangelism? (you might have a point about evangelism, but that is his job, after all). As far as I am aware, everyone in Italy is not forced to be Catholic. The Vatican is a separate, self-governing state, not a democracy, so I think they can require all their Christians to actually be Christian, yes.

multiple examples of religion and power being used throughout history to encourage more people to be a certain religion. - yes, that was history. We are discussing governments today.

Crusades - 11th through late 12th centuries . We are discussing governments today.

missionaries - Again, these are not governments, and are you really conflating missionary work with state-sanctioned collusion in activism? Perhaps some governments do, but do they do so openly, in a "worldwide, general consensus" kind of way?

colonialism etc. - Again, history. For those governments actively involved today in what we would call "colonialism " you're going to need a bigger thread. Perhaps some governments do, but do they do so openly, in a "worldwide, general consensus" kind of way?

I think a lot of your response is an attempt at some kind of gotcha, but bringing in the Crusades and colonialism is some kind of new low, even for threads on this forum. By all means, start a new thread on that, but I'm not going to encourage you to derail this one. Actually, as I just realized this is your thread so of course you can talk about anything you want! Apologies. But I won't be participating if we get into colonialism and the Crusades. Life is too short,

Exactly. My dd has recently had a little tulip tattooed on her ankle.

She will not develop chronic pain or incontinence as a result and she is unlikely to become infertile or require surgery.

In fact, other than having a little tulip design in her ankle, I can confidently say it will have no further impact on her life.

I’ve never understood this “born in the wrong body” malarkey. What is born into the wrong body? Are they saying there are gendered souls flying around everywhere entering into babies and sometimes they go into the wrong one? If so, what happens to the others? Who makes these “souls”? Where do they come from?

To be fair, that's exactly how I once presented it to a friend. But:

1. We shared a religious background, so "a male soul in a female body" was an easy analogy for me to give and him to understand.
2. That was before the ladies here on MN had forced me to dig deeper and figure out what exactly I meant by it.

Also, in an inverse of the first point above: when you're trying to figure out what's up with you as a trans person, and someone gives you some version of the "born in the wrong body" or "boy in a girl's body" explanation, it's extremely easy to immediately identify with it, because that's indeed how it feels.

So yes, it's malarkey, but it makes sense to me that it's so popular with trans people.

You have give a list of reasons why you disagree with this specific movement and what happens. Whether the concept of government involvement in social issues is acceptable in general is a separate, baseline issue which is what I asked.

Historically, anyone opposed to a societal shift can create a similar laundry list of reasons why the government shouldn't be involved in colluding and helping it. Some religious groups argued that their rights were being infringed upon when they were legally required to accommodate gay people. It is how this argument is consistently framed when someone is opposed.

Regardless of your personal stance, implementing societal change always creates friction that needs to be ironed out and need ways of doing things. Your list highlights implementation challenges and maybe even failures so far, but it doesn't answer my original question.

The idea that any adjustment of rights is automatically an absolute wrong is an inflexible and just incorrect position. In reality, civil rights are a constant balancing act between competing interests, which is often required to make society better overall and can include what can be perceived by various sides as losing rights.

Different than what? I have no idea how anyone else feels about their body. I don’t even know how I feel about being female, I just AM, and I certainly don’t know how my DH, brothers, father, grandsons, nephews etc feel about being male.
Transitioned from what to what? As sex is immutable, no one is able to change from being one sex to another. They can dress as the opposite sex, they can have body modifications, and can act as a stereotypical opposite sex person, but they can never BE the opposite sex.

Just confirms my conviction that Genderwang is just like the moonies, or heavens gate. Only more sexist. If that were possible.

but how can people then justify butchering chopping, cutting parts of of a naturally created biological correct machine produced by nature from a natural process ?

Yeah, it's a cult.

A big difference is that the NHS or health insurance isn’t forced to pay for tattoos and piercings but is forced to pay for mastectomies or breast implants or genital surgeries for people who think they’re the opposite sex. Some of this people are AGPs for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a fetish. And we, the tax payers, are unknowingly paying for their fetish to be served. Grim.

Yes, and they turn on the detransitioners in a similar way to Scientologists behave towards those who leave.

which brings to my next question trans people want the love and acceptance yes ? so where is the love and acceptance for the detransitioners ?

Well, if you're "really a boy inside", if you have "a male soul in a female body", then you want to express that male soul, to let that inside boy out, you know? So you want to modify your female body until it expresses what you see as your inner truth.

And it works, too: I am happier with the modified version of my body that I see in the mirror now. Which doesn't mean that I don't think I could not have achieved a better appreciation of my original body through other means, but unfortunately, no other means are explored out there, and I certainly didn't find any at the time I transitioned.

I’m still boggling at Baileys insistence we all have to choose a gender. Which stereotypes do I have to use to make my selection? When I go to the footy (season ticket holder of my local men’s EFL team) am I being man gender? Does it change on days when I wear a dress? What about if I wear jeans in the day then change to go out and wear a dress, heels and makeup? What gender am I being then? I’m obviously womaning when I crochet and do my mums shopping, but does that make DH a woman when he washes and irons his sons clothes when he stays with us before sending him home to his mum?

it may be the heat today but my patience with this kind of shite has worn paper thin. In the seventies we (boys and girls alike) wore brown corduroy trousers, had pudding bowl haircuts and played together in the streets with our space hoppers and scooters. We knew society was still pretty sexist but there was an expectation that when our generation grew up then women and men could do anything they wanted - men could be nurses and women could be train drivers. The only limit was our willingness to put the effort in. Our grandmas had tasted independence during the war because their husbands were away so they had to do everything. Then they came back and society put women back in their box and our mums grew up being told a woman’s place is in the home. Both generations were doubly determined that we would finally get the freedom they craved.

We so very nearly got there.

but by expressing it , how can you fundamentally alter a biological correctly designed machine that was made correctly at the time of conception ?

can you prove nature makes mistakes when designing machines or bodys,
can you explain why a mind or programming of the brain via social thoughts
can or why human ideas should overide the originally designed natural machine ?

It's a classic cult argument: "If they don't stick it through, it means they were never really one of us anyway."

For religions, it goes: "If they don't keep the faith till death, it means they never had the faith to begin with."

And for trans, it goes: "If they detransition, that means they were never trans to begin with."

And so they don't deserve the love of the faithful/trans.

I'm in the mentally ill camp. Pretty much everyone else who believes they're something they are not, we consider them mentally ill. People who believe they should be missing a limb. Mentally ill. People who believe they're children, or dogs, mentally ill. People who believe they're god. Mentally ill. People who believe they're the opposite sex? Also mentally ill.

Gay people don't believe they're someone other than who they are. They don't believe they're in the wrong body etc. They just fancy people who are outside of the norm for their sex. They're no different than people who like weird flavours of ice cream and can't stand chocolate. Yeah, they're wired differently, but they're not denying reality.

And to your point about tattoos and piercings @SolveMyPrombles , I think it's about degrees of harm. Tattoos and piercings generally don't actively damage the person getting them. (Side eyes DP with her d'aith piercing that keeps getting infected). People who actually harm themselves through their behaviours, anorexia, bulemia, people who self harm, people with amputation fetishes, we consider them to have mental health issues. Trans affirming hormones and surgery are harmful. They set trans people up for lifelong side affects and medical care. Its not a healthy thing to want. It's a mental illness.

brings me to my next question what rights based on their treatment of others should mean they get kind and caring treatment when they want to be trans if they cannot treat others with respect and kindness when they want to de trans ?

Its not the same as being gay. Or even similar. Being trans is absolutely nothing to do with sexuality (or there wouldn't be so many of these men in dresses proclaiming themselves lesbians)

I'm not sure I accurately understand your questions, so please forgive me if I don't answer what you're asking.

how can you fundamentally alter a biological correctly designed machine that was made correctly at the time of conception ?

Well, you can't? You can make a few changes, but you can't fundamentally alter it. Like, for example, my cells will always carry female DNA. There's no changing that.

can you prove nature makes mistakes when designing machines or bodys,

Some people are clearly born with "mistakes". I'm not saying trans is one of them (we don't know that), but it certainly happens.

can you explain why a mind or programming of the brain via social thoughts can or why human ideas should overide the originally designed natural machine ?

I doubt I was born with persistent depression, for example, but childhood trauma re-programmed my brain. So reprogramming is possible.

so then could it be argued that the machine was built correctly, but the brain is the faulty part ? eg bad code

I think the reason the genderwang hate detransitioners so much is because how can they argue that trans identity is innate and something you’re born with if people can be trans and then desist? How do they argue children know their “gender” and should’ve put on medical pathways if people who were child transitionary say they were mistaken? It blows all their arguments for transitioning children out of the water.

Whether the concept of government involvement in social issues is acceptable in general is a separate, baseline issue which is what I asked.

No, this is exactly what you asked:

So you are also against all and anything along these lines for race issues and rights, gender issues for women of any kind and rights, all LGBTQ issues and rights?
Or just the one you have an issue with? Is that the test, if you agree its OK if not its wrong?

Your list highlights implementation challenges and maybe even failures so far, but it doesn't answer my original question.

Those were the questions you posed in your OP responding to one of my posts (above and in italics) and those were the questions I answered. Trying to pretend you asked something else is unhelpful, to say the least.

However, I will respond to this:

The idea that any adjustment of rights is automatically an absolute wrong is an inflexible and just incorrect position.

It is if you "adjust" someone's rights by taking away someone else's rights. And you know this. Would it be right to "adjust" someone else's rights to own property by removing your right to own your home? Didn't think so.

One more time for the people in the back who didn't hear it the first 17,000 times: Trans-identified people have all the rights that everyone else has, and they have the additional right under the EA 2010 of "gender reassignment."

What transactivists want are rights already belonging to other people. They can't have them.

Activists also have wants, which they call "rights." I suppose maybe someday they'll get some of their wants. But they won't get them by taking away other people's rights.

In reality, civil rights are a constant balancing act between competing interests,
yes they are. Interests, not rights. See above.

which is often required to make society better overall and can include what can be perceived by various sides as losing rights.

Women losing their rights is not a perception. It's been a fact. We are remedying the situation rapidly.

The only "side" which has perceived that they are losing rights are the transactivists. They never had those rights in the first place.

That's where I stop being useful :P Because I totally agree that they certainly don't give a "kind and caring treatment" to non-trans people - and even to some trans people! And that they have no basis for requiring such treatment in return.