Draft Conversion Practices Bill - published

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-conversion-practices-bill

I've always said 'trans' is the conversion therapy, especially if you're a children who just confused because of their sexual orientation, and is really just gay.

And do we assume that the people who drafted the legislation were unaware of this? Are they that stupid?

Badly drafted legislation: causing problems since 2004 (and doubtless well before that too).

If this Bill is shown to be "bad for trans" no way will it pass into law. They're the only ones who count. The ones pulling the strings will realize that this will mean that every transwidow will be able to get an order against their estranged husband, every parent in a school could get an order issued against every activist teacher, and organizations like Diversity Role Models and Stonewall will be out of business overnight.

Someone earlier said it will be the non-crime hate incident issue all over again. I think they're right.

None of that's relevant to what I just said.

I was talking about the very real experiences of trans children and young trans adults. And how damaging it is when their parents - often the only people they have in the world to protect them - let them down.

You've completely ignored what I said about parental abuse, and the irreparable damage it does.

Wittering on about therapy and your beliefs doesn't alter any of that. What on earth is 'trans-affirming' therapy - you mean, the kind where a child isn't forcibly told they shouldn't be trans?!

Any therapist who failed to respect a trans child would be reported as abusive. Therapy is about the individual, not ideology.

As for the 'dys' nonsense - do you also believe dystonia is a MH issue? Or dysmennorrhea? Dyspepsia? Dysentery? Because that's quite unforgivably ignorant. The prefix is widely used within medicine. It absolutely doesn't denote mental health issues.

Perhaps in your head there are gangs of adults 'transing' children. Of course, I appreciate realising that you enable violence against trans children with all this deeply ignorant hate speech (please don't give up the day job or pretend you know anything about medicine again) would be hard.

Well yeah, trans people are all-powerful. Remains a mystery why they've banned themselves from sports they weren't winning (or in many cases, even playing), got trans women carted off to be raped in men's prisons and passed all kinds of oppressive measures against themselves.

Also why they've not allowed trans children any healthcare. Quite the slip-up, really.

It's almost like trans people are a persecuted minority who suffer street violence, parental alienation and unemployment. But recognising th at would involve addressing your hate for them, I know.

And I'm sorry, 'transwidow'?! Wow. Nothing like individual or collective responsibility for break-ups, huh.

Yes, obviously abusive partners of any gender should be kept away from their victims. As a survivor I completely support that. But it has nothing to do with how people identity.

Still no perspective, still the rage huh. Quelle surprise, what would your life be without it. Please do something to heal your life, because this anger at a minority really isn't normal, constructive - or feminist.

I haven't ignored abuse, I briefly discussed it earlier. I also mentioned that I think that affirming children into the belief that they are 'trans' could also be se seen as a form of abuse - one disguised as 'kindness'. Not preparing a child for the world as it is, or the reality of their situatiion is certainly a form of neglect.

No child is in 'the wrong body'. They are perfect the way that they are. The parents' job is to provide them with containment and with healthy boundaries, and also with opportunities to explore their various talents and potentialities.

The prefix 'dys' - suggests a disorder or a dysfunction, and 'phoria' relates to the mind/mental state. It is not indicative of someone who needs to have their natural biological processes halted and suppressed in pursuit of the unobtainable. It is not nonsense. They are word categories that originate from Latin. Anyone familiar with medicine or psychiatry would know this.

Dystonia is a muscle dysfunction. Dyspepsia is a digestive malfunction. Dystopia is a nightmare world worthy of science fiction. Dysmennorhea is a dysfunction or disorder of the menses. Dysentry is a disease of the entrails.

Perhaps in your head there are gangs of adults 'transing' children

There are, or at least attempting to. Why do you think so many trans kids are autistic/ gay/ with poor mental health? Because this makes them more vulnerable to the messaging.

Latin and Greek*

Furthermore Hillary Cass and other clinicians have made sure that doctors and therapists will have the space to practice their ocupation without fear of being accused of 'transphobia'. Normal clinical or therapeutic investigation is not 'conversion'.

Dysentry is a disease of the entrails.

Well you learn something new everyday, next time I get V&D, this information is going to come back and haunt me.

It's me entrails, they're diseased. Oh woe is me. 😂😂😂😂

Agree.

what Comes after the prefix matters.

Do you know what ‘phoria’ means?

I find the term ‘trans children’ and ‘trans kids’ deeply wrong as coming from adult agendas.

Great thread from senior lawyer

Jonathan Brown

I’m increasingly convinced that the publication of the conversion practices bill at this stage, in this form, and with no apparent thought to the implications, is intended to bounce Burnham into committing to it by taking advantage of the current power vacuum.

In any rationally ordered government this bill would be accompanied by a substantial piece of work addressing the very obvious Article 8 issues it raises. Instead there’s a single sentence in the explanatory notes asserting that the government is satisfied it complies.

Anyone reading eg Christian Institute v Lord Advocate will see the profound difficulties that will arise in squaring the Art 8 rights of both parents and child and assessing proportionality. That is so even where there is no dispute about the underlying policy objectives.

That case was about a scheme designed to improve efficiency in delivery of services by multiple state agencies with overlapping responsibilities. Plainly a proper objective. Nevertheless it was an overreach in particular because of insufficient controls on information sharing.

This bill is concerned with philosophical concepts which are hotly contested. In the case of non-binary identities the UKSC has recently confirmed that the law does not currently recognise them. The bill presupposes the validity of these contested concepts.

So cl 1(2)(b) read with cl1(8) defines “conversion practice” as including conduct with the intention of causing an individual to believe that they do not have a non binary identity. In other words suggesting that they, like everyone else, are one sex or the other.

That is necessary but not sufficient, and to commit the offence the conduct must be abusive which according to cl 1(6) can be made out by, amongst other things, “psychological or emotional pressure”.

There is the clearest imaginable conflict between the right of parents to direct the upbringing of their children (which absolutely includes the right to tell their children that non-binary identity is nonsense) and this legislative encroachment pre-supposing the opposite.

There’s a reason that the Scottish Government hasn’t done this, despite saying it wants to. Bluntly, FWS 4 would follow immediately, and if necessary all the way to the UKSC. And having lost in Christian Institute on a much more modest Art 8 interference the SG is rightly wary.

So the Bill gives no impression of having been thought through. And it is obvious that the very last thing Burnham will want while he tries to re-set the government is a hugely messy fight on this ground. So why publish it now of all possible times? It has to be manoeuvres. End.

https://nitter.net/Broonjunior/status/2070567070375219524

Yes, of course 'entrails' is/was a word used to describe the abdominal digestive system.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/banning-conversion-therapy/public-feedback/banning-conversion-therapy-analysis-of-consultation-responses

"Some respondents differentiated between conversion practices focused on efforts to change a person to or from being transgender and conversion practices focused on changing a person’s sexual orientation. These respondents, which included both individuals and organisations, supported a ban on conversion practices aimed at converting someone from being lesbian, gay or bisexual specifically (rather than say, other sexual orientations), to heterosexual. However, they raised concerns about banning practices that used similar approaches but were focused on changing someone to or from being transgender. These respondents were generally likely to respond ‘Neither agree nor disagree’ when asked ‘Do you agree or disagree that the government should intervene to end conversion therapy in principle?’, suggesting they did not explicitly oppose a ban on transgender conversion practices but instead focused on the potential difficulties and considerations in drafting and implementing specific legislation implementing such a ban.[footnote 13] According to these respondents, transgender identities should not be immediately affirmed, but discussed with professional medical practitioners, family, and other relevant adults. This would include teachers in the case of children. For these respondents, talking therapies, watchful waiting approaches, or other similar services should not fall within the ban on conversion therapies.

Consultation response:
"By lumping gender identity in with same sex orientation you risk creating poor policy that will be impossible to interpret and implement. There is a massive risk of limiting important conversations for people who are exploring their sexuality and identity, either with therapists or in wider society."

Well, indeed. The consultation lumping them both together and never questioning about them individually was incredibly stupid. I wonder why they did that.

Thanks for this.

There is the clearest imaginable conflict between the right of parents to direct the upbringing of their children (which absolutely includes the right to tell their children that non-binary identity is nonsense) and this legislative encroachment pre-supposing the opposite.

Yes, this is the point at which I expect the Bill might fall apart. As long as there is enough publicity out there to inform parents that this is what the government (of today!) is trying to impose in them.

So the Bill gives no impression of having been thought through.

😆Why am I not surprised by this!

I've just seen this on twitter that suggests that the reason that parents aren't exempt along with healthcare professionals is because there's a basic presumption that the state doesn't interfere with the raising of children.

I'm sure I've read on here that some people have had social services called on them when they did not affirm their child's transgender identity which would seem to contradict this. Does anyone know the law here?

So these men that boast about “cracking someone’s egg”, are they going to be prosecuted for conversion practices? 🤔

Let me remind you that the brakes were only put on these things through many court cases in which the government took the side of trans people. Those in power are in thrall to the trans lobby.

What about the conversion of children from being ordinary children to children thinking they are in the wrong body?

Here is just one example of the fashionable drive to do this from a children’s book which is being sold alongside all sorts of other tempting, large, colourful, hardback, illustrated books for younger children, in a gift shop section of a popular cultural venue in the city where I live.

Excerpt (with my bolding) from,
Stories for Kids who Dare to be Different.
True Tales of Boys and Girls who Stood up and Stood Out.
Roberta Cowell 1918 - 2011

Once the war was over, Robert was sent home to England and focused his energies on motor racing.

But he never felt comfortable, never felt quite right. After seeing different psychologists, ^Robert started to realize
that this was because he'd been born in the wrong body. ^Though he had the physical features of a male, he knew inside he was female, and he wanted a body to match.

So he began the long and difficult process of changing his body from a male body to a female one. The surgery was illegal, and to have it done, Robert had to leave behind his family, and tell the world that he had always had a female body. Robert became Roberta. She became the first person in Britain to go through the process.

Her change meant that Roberta couldn't race the Grand Prix any more, though she never stopped being involved in racing and never stopped flying planes.

Through the war, through the loneliness, and through her battle to become her true self, Roberta never once slowed down.

a) Robert was not a child when he did this.
This is a book about children “daring to be different”

b) No one is “born in the wrong body” yet the book states he was as though it was a fact. Isn’t against guidelines for children to be taught they might be in the wrong body?

c) “Her true self” here the child reader is being lied to basically.

Here is a page from from a Noisy Crow book for children,

Growing Up
An Inclusive Guide to Puberty and Your Changing Body

What is a person's sex?

When a baby is born, a doctor or a midwife looks to see whether the baby has a penis or a vulva. Babies that have a penis are called boys (males). Babies that have a vulva are called girls (females). This is called their biological sex.

As babies get older and become children, they start to understand more about themselves and who they are.

Lots of people will feel like the sex they were given when they were born is the right one for them.

Some people might feel that they weren't given the right sex when they were born: for example, they might have been called a girl when they were born, but actually they know they are a boy; or they might have been called a boy when they were born, but they know they are a girl.

Some people will feel like they're not a boy or a girl at all, or their feelings may change from day to day. Feeling like a boy or a girl, or neither or both, is called a person's gender identity. Everyone has a gender identity. Some people will know what their gender identity is when they are very young and some people might only feel sure when they are a teenager

This Usborn
book is called,

Growing Up
Adolescence, body changes and sex.

Gender vs sex
You might have heard of gender before. Many people think its the same thing as your sex - but it isn't. Your sex describes the body parts you were born with, but your gender is about how you think and feel.

[speech bubble] YOU'RE A GIRL? BUT YOU DON'T LOOK LIKE A GIRL.

I DON'T HAVE TO.
I FEEL LIKE A GIRL.

Gender is a feeling
Maybe you feel like a girl, or a boy, or both, or neither. This feeling is your gender, and it may have nothing to do with your genitals. Your gender is personal, which means only you can say what it is. You might know what your gender is, or find that it changes as you grow. It's up to you who you tell about it, and when.

Gender and sex

It's common for males to feel like boys and females to feel like girls, but this isn't true for everyone. If it feels right for you, that means you're cisgender (cis).

If you feel differently, you might be transgender (trans). For example, you might be male and feel like a girl, or female and feel like a boy.

All combinations of sex and gender are normal.

[speech bubble] “WE MAY BE TWINS, BUT I'M A CIS GIRL...”
“..AND I'M A TRANS BOY.”

Many genders
like neither, or like a mix of the two. This is called being Your gender isn't limited to being a girl or boy. You could feel non-binary (enby). If you feel as if your gender changes regularly, even daily, then you could be gender fluid. Both of these are normal.

[speech bubble] THAT'S FUNNY, I ACTUALLY FEEL LIKE A BOY TODAY

WHO'S HE? IS HE NEW?

^NOW YOU LOOK LIKE
A GIRL.^

THAT'S JAY. THEY'RE ENBY AND PREFER BEING CALLED THEY INSTEAD OF HE.

AH, COOL!

I JUST FEEL LIKE ME. AND I'M HAPPY THAT WAY!

..^AND I'MA
TRANS BOY.^

Many sexes

Just as there are more than two genders, there are more than two sexes, too. Some people are born with a mix of male and female parts, known as intersex:

If you're intersex, it might be because of the mixture of hormones in your body. Or it might be that you have one kind of sex organ on the outside but another on the inside. Or maybe your genitals are a mix of male and female, or not clearly one or the other. And if any of this describes you, it's still up to YOU to decide on what your gender is.

Gross, gross and gross. 🤢