A TIM in women’s changing room at the gym, how can you prove it?

[NotTodayPhyllis]

Sorry this is so long and has taken so long to write that I have to go out now so will need to read any responses later.
I just wanted to add this in case anyone wondered why I’d start a thread then not engage

I go to a gym that’s part of a hotel chain with a pool and have been going for 15 years on and off.

After some health issues (physical and quite severe mental) I’ve been going 5-7 times a week from being practically housebound so it’s a really safe important space for me.
I’ve made vast improvements on my health and made friends, lost weight and started to change my life.

A lot of my mental health problems stem from childhood sexual abuse and later assault and I think contributed to being in more than one abusive relationship.
Because of this I am very wary and scared of men and even had to leave my last job as it included working with men in a small space and I couldn’t cope because despite telling them to give me space they wouldn’t listen.

The last few days in the gym I noticed someone who is very obviously a man using the women’s changing room which is open plan with benches and lockers except one cubicle.
He wears a one piece swimming costume and gets dressed and undressed either under a towel or in the cubicle so isn’t flashing anyone but I don’t want to get changed in front of him and the other women seem very uncomfortable as well.
No one has said anything out loud but we’ve all exchanged worried looks and I’ve noticed some women changing in the toilet who had no issues using the open space before.
Some hours are child friendly and I go just as they are finishing and I’ve noticed he’s been in the changing room at the same time as the women who have children with them.

I live very close to the gym so I’ve been going with my kit on then after using the gym I’ve been changing for the pool quickly in the cubicle then going to shower at home and just quickly drying off and throwing a tracksuit on.
But now my skin is covered in a really itchy rash from not rinsing off the chlorine and so dry from not instantly putting moisturiser on.
I also have been really panicky and frantically getting changed in case he comes in and sometimes leaving early because the constant state of adrenaline in case of being alone in a space with him is leading to panic attacks.

I went to speak to the gym manager today to ask why this is happening when it isn’t legal and the Supreme Court ruling and further guidance means he should be using men’s spaces.

I know the manager well because he’s been there for years so he was open with me and said he’s aware of this man and trying to deal with it but it’s difficult because he’s registered at the gym as a woman and there is no way of actually proving he’s a man (despite it being obvious) and he’s not sure if he can ask him to leave and say he knows he’s a man by the obvious things like his height, size of hands, gait and most importantly his deep voice!
He said that if this man just says he’s a masculine woman and insists he is then where does he go from there?
The gym is a separate business from the hotel chain and just using the space so he’s asking for legal advice but said he’s angry that this is on him to prove and risk an altercation with a man that’s bigger then him and clearly happy to ignore to the law so he clearly doesn’t have any respect for the staff or women using the gym and is just intent on getting what he wants.

This happened a few years ago when I was taking a break and the gym manager told me the man who tried it in the past just kept coming back and shouting “trans people exist” when confronted.
I don’t even understand what this means because clearly they exist or this wouldn’t be an issue?!

I asked what happened in the previous situation and the manager said most women stopped using the changing rooms and were arriving and leaving in their kit and using a hotel room to change for swimming next to the gym that they were discreetly told about.
The man stopped coming when the women weren’t there for him to invade their space but women had to sacrifice their space in the meantime rather then just getting him to be the one to leave.

The law is clearer now and this should be easier to deal with the previously but how are you supposed to 100% prove someone is a man when their ID says they are a woman and they insist they are? He’s a big man and I doubt any of the women want to challenge him either so we are all going to end up losing our space again unless there is a clear way of dealing with this and preventing it happening again.

The gym manager said he’s going to get legal advice and ask if he has the right to ask someone to leave based on just appearance.
I know a lot of women on here are very knowledgeable about these things and thought I’d ask in the meantime if anyone can suggest what the right approach might be? I’ve been looking online and can’t see any clear answer.
The TRA’s say they know they can’t be properly challenged or forced into “pants inspections” so they will continue to use our spaces and insist they are the opposite sex.

It’s really upsetting and frustrating that the law has been made so clear and yet it seems impossible to enforce.
Even if you ring the police and say there is a man in women’s spaces whilst they are undressing how do they then prove it?
Am I just being very naive over this or are we still in the same situation we were before the Supreme Court ruling only now it’s more frustrating knowing that the law is being broken and you can’t challenge it?

Aren't they developing an instant cheek swab kit for exactly this reason? It could be done there and then. Likely most women would be happy to comply to prove their sex and wouldn't care if that were a requirement of e.g. a contract with the gym or membership.

Just returning to the thread and I’ve not had chance to read through the other comments but had to reply to this before I move on.

I mentioned in my post I’ve been going to the gym a long time and I know the staff which is why the manager was so open. It’s a small gym with lots of mixed social events so people know each other and spend time together out of the gym.

I am a regular poster on this board and feel free to check with mumsnet HQ if you don’t think I’m posting for genuine reasons.
I wanted to get advice from women who have a lot of knowledge in this area and I’m not going to post about my history of sexual assault in a casual manner just to wind people up, that’s actually quite offensive.

I genuinely don’t know what the issue with the word “gait” is?!
I do regularly have physiotherapy and see an osteopath who use the word and I might have picked it up there from regular use but I thought it was a well used term?

I’ll read the rest of the replies now but I’ve spoken to other women at the gym in the last two days and they are also going to speak to the manager so hopefully it’ll be dealt with.

The truth is that men probably will continue to try to use women’s changing rooms though and I’m not sure why it would be a wind up to show concern about it when it makes me feel uncomfortable and vulnerable.

If you are genuine, then forget about “proof”. It’s not required or relevant. If the manager thinks a man has misrepresented their sex the manager simply suspends that member’s membership. No proof exists nor is it necessary or reasonable to ask for any.

Thats it.

write to the gym to complain and ask them to take action. They don’t have to prove anything - it’s for the customer to provide proof - a birth certificate - to get access. No “pants inspection” required. If they don’t do anything take the gym to the small claims court and encourage lots of others to do so too. One or two claims should stiffennthe manager’s resolve. The TIM can make their own claim but without a female birth certificate they will lose. And they can’t access the space. Simple.

Female birth certificate doesn’t help.

Put in an official complaint yo the manager, this should help him escalate and discretely request the man use the correct facilities, if the man refuses the manager can say he cannot use the womens and if does can ask him to leave, saying he's a woman doesnt make it so. If he doesn't leave and enters after being told no the manager can contact police to report and kick him out. The man if he so wishes can then try to sue them but he would then have to prove he's female. It's the responsibility of the service provider and if they don't act you can sue them for breaking the law by discrimination, I think. So put in your complaint that if nothing is done you will be seeking legal advice. Hope it gets sorted for you. So sorry this is still happening and still not being acted on.

I am a regular poster on this board

Well, this is your one and only post that shows under Search, so make of that what you will. If you need an answer for that, it's probably that you name change a lot.

You certainly have come up with a perfectly acceptable answer for every one of my concerns about your post, although it took you 25 hours. All except for "pants inspections." I'm not the only one who thought that was an odd phrase, but I've been wrong before.

In any event, I really don't care. My advice stands, as does all the other posters' advice. The service provider must obey the law, whether they like it or not. No men in female changing rooms, so they'll have to deal with it. That will make you happy when the man is gone, no doubt.

Well worth reading Akua Reindorf's article on another thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5544939-code-of-practice-explained-by-akua-reindorf-in-response-to-ian-dunt

Excellent for many reasons, but she does address this particular myth and references the guidance which advises on it.

Really?
I thought that the GRC is an extra certificate (like as an overlay) but doesn’t replace the original?

Put in a written complaint, and use the resources that Sex Matters provide.

The manager can insist the man using the changing rooms not use the female changing rooms whatever the sex on their membership form says. The manager doesn't have to prove anything about this client's sex.

Thanks to the SC ruling, the manager has nothing to worry about legally.

Unfortunately it does. The only way you can tell it isn't the original is by the issue date of the new certificate. In the case of a TIM, the issue date will be years after the actual date of birth. However, this also applies to women who have lost their original birth certificate and applied for a new one as an adult. You can't tell the difference between them (by paperwork anyway)!

Someone with a GRC can request a new birth certificate which will show their adopted sex.

It is well known (and we should acknowledge) there is no documentation as to sex in the UK.

That’s a lacuna, but one we have to work with.

No, that man can call himself whatever he wants, and have it written on a piece of paper, but we all know he is still a man, maybe one of the very few who has had surgery, but that does not work magic or change the laws of nature and biology.