A TIM in women’s changing room at the gym, how can you prove it?

[NotTodayPhyllis]

Sorry this is so long and has taken so long to write that I have to go out now so will need to read any responses later.
I just wanted to add this in case anyone wondered why I’d start a thread then not engage

I go to a gym that’s part of a hotel chain with a pool and have been going for 15 years on and off.

After some health issues (physical and quite severe mental) I’ve been going 5-7 times a week from being practically housebound so it’s a really safe important space for me.
I’ve made vast improvements on my health and made friends, lost weight and started to change my life.

A lot of my mental health problems stem from childhood sexual abuse and later assault and I think contributed to being in more than one abusive relationship.
Because of this I am very wary and scared of men and even had to leave my last job as it included working with men in a small space and I couldn’t cope because despite telling them to give me space they wouldn’t listen.

The last few days in the gym I noticed someone who is very obviously a man using the women’s changing room which is open plan with benches and lockers except one cubicle.
He wears a one piece swimming costume and gets dressed and undressed either under a towel or in the cubicle so isn’t flashing anyone but I don’t want to get changed in front of him and the other women seem very uncomfortable as well.
No one has said anything out loud but we’ve all exchanged worried looks and I’ve noticed some women changing in the toilet who had no issues using the open space before.
Some hours are child friendly and I go just as they are finishing and I’ve noticed he’s been in the changing room at the same time as the women who have children with them.

I live very close to the gym so I’ve been going with my kit on then after using the gym I’ve been changing for the pool quickly in the cubicle then going to shower at home and just quickly drying off and throwing a tracksuit on.
But now my skin is covered in a really itchy rash from not rinsing off the chlorine and so dry from not instantly putting moisturiser on.
I also have been really panicky and frantically getting changed in case he comes in and sometimes leaving early because the constant state of adrenaline in case of being alone in a space with him is leading to panic attacks.

I went to speak to the gym manager today to ask why this is happening when it isn’t legal and the Supreme Court ruling and further guidance means he should be using men’s spaces.

I know the manager well because he’s been there for years so he was open with me and said he’s aware of this man and trying to deal with it but it’s difficult because he’s registered at the gym as a woman and there is no way of actually proving he’s a man (despite it being obvious) and he’s not sure if he can ask him to leave and say he knows he’s a man by the obvious things like his height, size of hands, gait and most importantly his deep voice!
He said that if this man just says he’s a masculine woman and insists he is then where does he go from there?
The gym is a separate business from the hotel chain and just using the space so he’s asking for legal advice but said he’s angry that this is on him to prove and risk an altercation with a man that’s bigger then him and clearly happy to ignore to the law so he clearly doesn’t have any respect for the staff or women using the gym and is just intent on getting what he wants.

This happened a few years ago when I was taking a break and the gym manager told me the man who tried it in the past just kept coming back and shouting “trans people exist” when confronted.
I don’t even understand what this means because clearly they exist or this wouldn’t be an issue?!

I asked what happened in the previous situation and the manager said most women stopped using the changing rooms and were arriving and leaving in their kit and using a hotel room to change for swimming next to the gym that they were discreetly told about.
The man stopped coming when the women weren’t there for him to invade their space but women had to sacrifice their space in the meantime rather then just getting him to be the one to leave.

The law is clearer now and this should be easier to deal with the previously but how are you supposed to 100% prove someone is a man when their ID says they are a woman and they insist they are? He’s a big man and I doubt any of the women want to challenge him either so we are all going to end up losing our space again unless there is a clear way of dealing with this and preventing it happening again.

The gym manager said he’s going to get legal advice and ask if he has the right to ask someone to leave based on just appearance.
I know a lot of women on here are very knowledgeable about these things and thought I’d ask in the meantime if anyone can suggest what the right approach might be? I’ve been looking online and can’t see any clear answer.
The TRA’s say they know they can’t be properly challenged or forced into “pants inspections” so they will continue to use our spaces and insist they are the opposite sex.

It’s really upsetting and frustrating that the law has been made so clear and yet it seems impossible to enforce.
Even if you ring the police and say there is a man in women’s spaces whilst they are undressing how do they then prove it?
Am I just being very naive over this or are we still in the same situation we were before the Supreme Court ruling only now it’s more frustrating knowing that the law is being broken and you can’t challenge it?

Goodness me, that gym manager certainly was happy to have a lengthy and detailed discussion with you about his legal dilemma and history of trans usage in his gym which fortunately happened to confirm all of your pre-existing opinions and concerns, how very helpful of him.

“Even if you ring the police and say there is a man in women’s spaces whilst they are undressing how do they then prove it?”

Just on this point, you probably wouldn’t say that about anything else, you’d leave the police to get on with their job of investigating.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you.

It sounds as if the only solution here is for a brave and possibly crazy woman to face up to him and ask "do you have a penis?". And if he answers yes, tell him that the law is clear that he should not be in a women's changing room. And if he answers "no" suggest that the pair of them strip off in front of each other to prove it.

I'll happily volunteer if you're in my area.

His offence is a civil offence of trespass, not a criminal offence, the police will be unlikely to act.

It would need women to stand up and tell him that he is harassing them, then he can be arrested for a criminal offence if he repeats the behaviour.

This is horrible for you, I’m sorry you’re having to tackle this. I think you need to ask for (or find on the website) the company’s Complaint policy and write a formal letter of complaint.

Alternatively you could have another word with the manager and say if he doesn’t do something pronto you will be taking legal advice.

One other thought is to name and shame on social media. If you don’t want to do this yourself, DM me and I will see to it.

Since you haven’t consented to him watching you as you change he is committing an offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and the Voyeurism (Offences) Act 2019

Report him to the police everytime he seems to be watching with dates and times and in particular report him being present when there are children changing. You can do online reports, chances of police doing anything low but it’s on record. Tell the gym manager you’re also reporting him to the police as that helps him escalate situation internally and if you can discreetly suggest to the other women they should also report him to police and management as well for voyeurism.

Put in a formal complaint to the gym that allowing him to use the female changing room is indirect discrimination against you, if you can get other women to do the same it will help.

Good luck, I backed out of joining a local gym with pool because of a similar situation. I hadn’t joined so couldn’t report to police for voyeurism but my complaints to management got nowhere. Slightly heartening that manager sounds sympathetic and it’s rubbish that he has to deal with this but it’s part of being a manager and he needs to keep escalating everytime.

As I understand the way it works, the gym manager doesn't need to prove anything. They say the suspected bloke can't go in to the female changing area, and if the customer objects he has to take legal action against the gym.

But the women still wouldn’t have to “prove it” though, that’s my point, that’s someone else’s job.

This.

A clear sign on doors saying that the law requires the single sex spaces are used only by those of that sex, and that the alternative provisions for customers which welcome trans users can be found here and here would be a very good start.

Since you haven’t consented to him watching you as you change he is committing an offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and the Voyeurism (Offences) Act 2019

As long as there are cubicles available for women to avoid him looking at them and they willingly change in front of him, then he hasn't committed this offence.

Great point.

Just, out of interest, what is the legal standing on this? Is there anything in law yet?

As in if you are Billy but dressed as Betty, and you are Billy on your passport, then you’re a man. You still have male anatomy.

But if you were Billy and have had transitioning surgery, can you officially change identity to Betty & get a passport to reflect that?

So, only once you are fully a woman (is it recognised legally?) can you access women’s spaces. That should be the rule?

The only problem is that these new mixed spaces will start to be the norm…

Anyway, my question is, can a not-woman actually become a woman (in identity term?)

Just tell him to get the fuck out of the women’s changing rooms...and then call the police. Pushing boundaries and making women feel uncomfortable is all part of his fetish. The law is in your side and the gym needs to deal with it pronto.
Contact Sex Matters.

This was one of the major problems of the EHRC advice to my mind. It says you can ask trans people to leave the loos/changing rooms but also say there is no documentation in the UK that shows biological sex so there is no way to ask people to prove it and be sure.

In the UK, yes they can, although it takes time and paperwork. They can change their passports & their birth certificates so that everything agrees with their choice of sex, and there is no visable paper trail to their original identity - there are laws against people trying to connect them back to their original identity using data matching.

“Betty” can get a passport as “Betty” and even a certificate saying he was born “Betty” but he’s still a man under the Equality Act which all service providers must follow. There was a Supreme Court judgment last year that confirmed this and there have been various cases since then which have deferred to this, one judgment actually handed down this morning (on men in women’s prisons policy in Scotland).

Ok, I'll bite.

OP, that's a lot of words and backstory just to say that you think men will just continue to use women's changing rooms and there's nothing we can do about it.

I was wondering why the manager was speaking to you so candidly about one of his customers, and also seemed to know how all the other women were feeling about it, and what they did during the period that you weren't using the facilities. I thought that was odd, but then you continued on, ticking off every single "concern" that women have, including "his height, size of hands, gait and most importantly his deep voice!". No one who hasn't been in this game for a very long time knows or uses the word "gait" unless you work in physiotherapy or sports medicine.

But, you know when you lost me? "pants inspections"

I have never heard this term used on this forum, or used by anyone else who knows enough about this issue to comment on it, on any platform. The term used is normally "genital inspections." So either you're coining a new phrase, or this is a windup.

I have no advice other than to say that yes, women can demand that service providers follow the law, it's for service providers to work out how best to achieve that, and if you're not happy with the result, you can sue the provider.

Most of these men don’t have a GRC so a birth certificate would be enough for them. Men should not be using women’s spaces and the onus is on the service provider to deter them.

@BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth quite.

Children can’t be considered to have consented to be watched.

Women can expect to have privacy in a female changing room, they could be considered to have consented if they were changing in the male changing room but this is a female changing room. The onus is not on women to check no men present before they start changing. A solitary cubicle should not be considered sufficient provision for all women using the pool & gym.

Fucksake I should have been here long enough to spot this, I did think the ‘pants inspection’ term was odd.

Thanks for the answers here, interesting to see where the pitfalls are with all of this. One can see the predicament for business owners, companies etc… But it is a very small percentage of the population at the same time.

How many men who should not be in women's changing rooms would be acceptable, from this "very small percentage" would you say? Is one enough? It would be for me.

ps. And there are no "pitfalls." Service providers are required to follow the law. The EHRC guidance is not the law, just a (very bad, in my opinion) attempt at explaining the law to people who don't normally read a lot of law. If a service provider refuses to follow the law, they can and will be taken to court.

Children are with their parents. If there are changing cubicles available nobody is forced to consent to being watched.

It's easy to chuck around comments about calling the police but it isn't a criminal offence to be in there, it's a civil offence of trespass.

I'm really sorry but if we women want him out of there then some of us are going to have to grow a pair and say so to his face.

After that he will bully guilty of a criminal offence of harassment.

No, it's not fair, it just is.

No, I agree with you Bridget. Was just re-reading my post, I mean that women should of course take precedence over the percentage of trans folk. Of course! I can totally see how OP feels the way she does. It’s very important for women to challenge all of this!