Is "gender identity" real?

[ByTheRiverside]

I'd like to hear your thoughts!

TRAs argue that being "transgender" is a real thing. They think there's some distinct quality to the way someone perceives themselves as a male or female, magically unobserved, that lives in the brain called "gender identity".

For my opinion - Sex Realists don't believe in this concept. We believe "transgender" is a lie, and that people are either male or female. That "gender identity" is a made-up idea that masks all of the obvious issues like autism, internalised homophobia, misogyny, sexism, sexual fetishes, etc.

What are your thoughts? Does "gender identity" exist in everyone, and are any "trans" people "valid" because of it?

And a follow-up question: As we know "gender identity" isn't real, is it possible to "prove a negative" here and come up with a hypothesis that may disprove it?

Exactly teh conclusion the Supreme Court came to.

Yes! I’m also autistic and am exactly the same as you in that regard. This whole thread is ideology that is dressed up as truth and logic but is skating on very thin ice.

I don’t honestly care whether gender identity exists or not but I am not going to decide whether it does or doesn’t without any proper robust evidence.

Good point - thank you!

There is practically no evidence for anything on this thread, even though the OP is written in a very black and white manner as if it is the widely researched and evidenced truth. The whole thread is ideology and conjecture but ignores any conjecture that doesn’t fit in with the ideology.

What about gender dysphoria? It’s a widely accepted diagnosis among doctors.

Fitting, considering we're discussing something that doesn't exist.

Thank goodness I’m part of the sane 79% who completed the poll.

Just because you feel something it doesn't make it real. I feel I am the Empress Theodora III of the Galadian Empire, which exists 40k years in the future. Doesn't make me so.

No, we are absolutely not arguing about semantics here. This is a key point of difference. TRAs have used "gender" to describe a personal experience of thier sex, while feminist thinkers use "gender" to describe a complex set of social rules and expectations imposed on both sexes, which are enforced to varying degrees through social punishments of differing types, and so it follows that most humans align to the gendered expectations associated with their biological sex to get along in life. Feminist theory argues that "gender stereotypes" are held up as ideal representatives of each sex, but feminism argues further that these ideals are restrictive, and that men and women cannot truly be free until these gender stereotypes are seen for the constructed systems they are, and the system that upholds them is abolished. Gender ideology, on the other hand believes that stereotypical gender alignment is a real indicator of maleness and femaleness, and that people who don't wish to align to the constructed stereotypes of the sex they were born with, must be defectively born into the wrong body. This is regressive, not semantic. Feminist thinking is more or less: "stereotypes are diminishing and restrict humans because of their sex, let's abolish them". Gender Ideology is "you don't align to the socially constructed stereotypes for your sexed body, so you should try to align to the other socially constructed and restrictive stereotype instead, and see if you can trick everyone into believing you’ve actually changed sex". It is literally the opposite of breaking down gender stereotypes.

What are you basing this on? Conformity to cultural stereotypes about men and women?

Well, it makes it true to you, even if it's objectively untrue? Like a strongly held belief, as others have said. That's all I meant, really.

I think it is relevant that societies with more rigid gender roles and stereotypes tend to have higher percentage of people identifying as transgender- meaning the “gender is a social box” aspect of gender cones before the innate feeling of your gender - it’s a driver /cause

I'm catching up on this thread and have just spotted this post - thank you, it sums up my opinion perfectly, and you express it far better than I ever could.
I love the phrase 'preferred personal aesthetic' .

I might accept that I have a 'gender identity' in that I don't conform to 'feminine' gender stereotypes in most ways - dress, appearance, hobbies, sexual orientation, etc.
But I didn't confuse how I dress and who I date etc with not being a woman, I just think that it's something about me, like that I overthink things, and don't like grapes. Even the seedless ones. Especially the seedless ones because they aren't even true to their selves...

I certainly don't want anyone to use different pronouns around me, or national parliaments to vote in laws that say that having a 'gender identity' like mine can also mean that I've changed sex. That's irrational.

So the phrase 'preferred personal aesthetic' is just what I need to say:
'It could be argued that I have a 'gender identity', but it's nothing more my 'preferred personal aesthetic''.

Thanks,QldGCandproud💐

You don't like grapes? What?
They are my favourite, but awful for diabetics so I can't have them often.

Indeed. But a diagnosis of what class of conditions? My comment was deleted for mentioning this.

This is the NHS definition: it defines gender dysphoria as a feeling not a condition.
Gender dysphoria is when you feel distressed or uncomfortable for a long time because the gender you feel you are (your gender identity) is different to your sex registered at birth.

It is not a mental health issue in itself but
These feelings can make it hard to enjoy everyday life and may affect your mental health. For example, you may feel depressed or anxious, or feel like self-harming.
Gender dysphoria and incongruence - NHS

If you look at the rest of that page, the 'Treatment for gender dysphoria and incongruence' goes straight to hormones and surgery, which seems like a very extreme response to someone with distressing or uncomfortable feelings about their sex, but no medical condition.

Except
If you're aged 17 or under, treatment will usually include talking therapy and counselling.

No mention of therapy and counselling about their feelings for anyone over 18.

It's a disgrace.

One day we will look back on this and realise how on the wrong side of history we were for the gender equivalent of giving anorexics ozempic.

It does talk about talking therapy for adults near the bottom of the page.

The NHS page you refer to is obviously aimed at patients and for whatever reason, the author has chosen not use the words ‘condition’ or ‘diagnosis’ but you will see those words used elsewhere. For example:

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria
First sentence:”Gender dysphoria is a condition where a person experiences discomfort or distress because there's a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity.”

https://slam.nhs.uk/gender-dysphoria

Towards the end of the above page:

“After a detailed assessment to confirm the diagnosis of gender dysphoria and what it means for you, the GDC team will work with you on an agreed treatment plan.”

Points taken, thanks.

Women were routinely diagnosed with hysteria at one time. Doesn’t make it a real illness.

Gender dysphoria is based on old sexist stereotypes. Body dysmorphia exists, as seen in anorexic patients, or those who have extreme cosmetic surgery (and one could argue that sex change surgery is included in this) but gender is a social construct, so it’s a delusion, like thinking you’re a mermaid or whatever.

Well there is certainly an element of truth in what you say about the hysteria diagnosis in that it proves that the medical profession sometimes gets things wrong. But in the end, you could use that same argument about all diagnoses where there is no test to prove the person has it eg ADHD, ME/CFS.

There is no proof that gender dysphoria exists and there is also none that it doesn’t exist BUT there is enough evidence to convince doctors around the world that it does exist.

I’m not sure if I follow your comment about gender not being real because it is a social construct. We all live in society which runs on social constructs and they in turn impact on or cause health problems eg i’n not sure anorexia would exist if it wasn’t for our culture of idolizing thinness as beauty perfection.

Yes, a lot of these diagnoses are part of a massive self-diagnosis list that 'trans' people subscribe to.

An example list of the conditions they pretend to have:

• POTS
• IBS
• EDS
• HSD
• MCAS
• ADHD
• C-PTSD
• ME/CFS
• Fibromyalgia
• Tourettes
• Long COVID
• PCOS/PMOS
• Lupus
• DID
• 'Intersex' conditions
• Coeliac disease

Notice anything interesting about them? The criteria is very nebulous, and relies on heavy self-reporting. Some have ways of proof, like coeliac, but I guarantee if you push them and say "How did you get diagnosed?" they will say "Oh, I just have all the symptoms".

The reason they make this up about themselves is the same reason they pretend to not be their sex - they have awful mental health, spend too much time affirmation hunting on the internet, and have overactive imaginations.

The reason they never find out what's truly wrong with them and chase magical labels for their ailments is because their identity requires them not to get help living in reality. If they ever got the true help they needed, they wouldn't have these conditions, and they also wouldn't be trans. And they want to live in a fantasy, not reality.

Do I believe men can become women? No. Do I believe that some men believe they can become women? Maybe. Do I believe it’s a fetish/an attempt to get into women’s spaces? Maybe - for some at least.

Do I think trans women like women? Not really, no. I think they make a mockery of women. It’s like the Black and White Minstrel Show, or drag queens that portray women as bitchy, snarky, sarcastic, horrible people. When women portray men they are the handsome prince. When men portray women they are Widow Twankey. There is a middle age man who walks round my town dressed as a pubescent Britney Spears. Nobody can tell me that’s not a fetish. When I see him something at a really basic level physically recoils, like Michael Jackson or Dylan Mulvaney.

I can’t comment on whether or not trans people pretend to have these conditions. Personally, I prefer to avoid sweeping generalizations about groups of people - such generalizations are usually inaccurate, plus it is mean.

i am formally diagnosed with a few of the conditions on your list myself (I’m not trans though). You are totally and utterly incorrect to describe the diagnostic criteria as “nebulous” at least for the conditions I have. However, I am not going to go into that because it really is going far off the topic. I am also offended.

If you have the conditions then what's the point in being offended?

Trans people don't have them, and pretend to.

I am offended by your use of the word “nebulous” . Those of us with those conditions are constantly being doubted and told we have made things up, or even if the diagnosis is believed, then we are exaggerating the symptoms for sympathy or to act as an excuse for being lazy or bad behavour. It is utterly nasty and incredibly draining.