Calling females with ambiguous appearance

[Brainworm]

TRAs are expressing increasing levels of concern for females whose presentation is ambiguous in relation to their sex. They often cite women with allopecia, cancer survivors and butch lesbians.

I thought it might be productive if we collate some ‘lived experiences’ so we can provide constructive advice to those concerned.

I am 5 feet 11. I have very broad shoulders and short hair, but not balding. I am also a cancer survivor (mastectomy) and live in ‘gender neutral’ clothes. No jewellery, no make up, always trousers, always flat shoes (trainers).

Pre menopause there were occasions when people did a double take, especially in winter when wrapped up - I was very hour-glassy (not willowy), so not androgynous in that sense. Once or twice, over 30 odd years I had people say things like - gosh, you’re tall, which I sensed was communicating some concern. As soon as I spoke, all concern was lost - probably due to 2 things. My voice is clearly female, and the nature of my response was pleasant.

Post meno, my waist has thickened. My fat distribution is still female indicating but less so, so I am less obviously female than before. However, I haven’t been questioned or challenged more. If I was, I have no doubt the same would apply once I responded as outlined above.

So, my advice to females who have androgynous, ambiguous or male appearances (I’m excluding those who take exogenous hormones with the intention to pass as male) is to accept, as fact, that your appearance is one that could lead people to question your sex. If this is upsetting, try and work on self acceptance - we are a lot more than our outward appearance. If someone questions your sex within the context of single sex provision, see this as them looking out for you, just as much as more feminine looking women. Rest assured that if you speak, this alone is likely to dispel their fears.

Anyone else have any tips to share? It would be great if the TRAs didn’t have to worry about this group and could instead focus on finding solutions for trans people.

Women. The word you're looking for is women.

If a trans identified woman who has been taking testosterone, resulting facial hair and a deepened voice, is uncomfortable using the womens facilities ( and she may well be) then she can use a 'third' or 'gender neutral' facility, or simply a single occupancy facility such as already exists in many places.

And of course, acceptance of the ruling does not preclude being able to campaign for discrete facilities and provisions where they are lacking in workplaces and large institutions etc. Such large institutions will be easily able to meet such requirements without any great fuss or expense. For example, companies and institutions now routinely install disabled facilities and disabled access now that it is a legal requirement to do so.

Oh it's so, so lovely of those men to worry about me, I'm sure without a thought in their heads about how they can use me to campaign for their cause. How very sweet of them.

But I can assure them that I find it perfectly easy to smile broadly to reassure any other woman who tells me I'm in the wrong loo, or looks concerned by my height, hair, android pelvis, 8½ inch span hands and very broad shoulders.

I don't mind at all if they need to question me, I don't get offended by people who call me sir in shops. I love my height and my linear physique and always have.

Incidentally, I'm getting a lot more questioning looks since the trans lobby started their fight to use our spaces, so thanks for that guys.

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/16u43qv8TD/

I’m tall, short hair, live in trousers and trainers, don’t wear make up, moderately often wear men’s clothes. The last time I was mistaken for a man IRL I was 11.

On the phone I’m constantly mistaken for a man - low pitched voice and gender neutral title. These days I generally don’t correct them (unless I’m already irritated by something else about the call). It’s usually irrelevant to whatever aspect of banking etc we are talking about (my daughter always corrects them if she gets involved because she finds the thought of me being called her dad horrendous).

So far, 3 of us, plus a Facebook post, show that women can anticipate or experience people questioning our sex without the need for smelling salts - we obviously can’t clutch our pearls!

There seems to be swathes of people who believe that it is a right to not feel emotional discomfort or embarrassment. People really should be able to use rational thought to regulate themselves as/when these instances occur. They don’t even need therapy, there are plenty of free, online resources.

Here, as in other areas, it’s the hyperbolic narratives pushed by activists that cause the distress, not the actual incidents.

The woman in my video was really angry.

I get sir’ed occasionally when someone registers my height and short hair (6’1) where they haven’t really looked at me.
I usually laugh - it tends to be men rather than women (which I’ve never really thought about until now) and they do a double take and get all embarrassed.

It’s happened more since having short hair. It really doesn’t bother me at all.

This doesn’t apply to me (am 5’4” with small shoulders and a big bottom!) however it makes me really angry when TRAs try and use this like there are levels of being a woman and if you’re not “feminine” enough you might get questioned as to whether you really are a woman.
I just hate it, I’m a woman because I was born female with a female reproductive system and went through female puberty- full stop.

ps never met a woman who I mistook as a man, ever in 44 years, maybe a double take once or twice but never met a woman who would “pass”

It would be great if the TRAs didn’t have to worry about this group and could instead focus on finding solutions for trans people.

It's a shame that they didn't give a flying fuck until now.

She certainly hid it well then.

I think that just as TRAs don't understand what makes someone female, they don't understand what it is about human appearance that makes someone look female. The people they say don't look like women and will be challenged are always identifiability female to me. Humans can generally reliably sex others.

I disagree completely OP.

I am 5'8" and slim but with some curves. Obviously female.

I lost my hair to chemo a few years ago. On the first day I had the courage to ditch my wig and show my inch long regrowth, I was walking from work up the steps of Waterloo Station. It was winter, cold and I was wearing work trousers and loafers. A man, total stranger, brushed past me and said loudly "f*cking dyke"

I have no intention of accepting that my appearance justified that comment. I may not have looked my best, it had been a tough few months, I worked all the way through and was tired but the only person in the wrong was the ignorant pathetic excuse for a man who thought that was acceptable.

Yes, this is all part of the 'safety/ my feelings' culture that has become established in the last 15 years or so. Jonathan Hadit worite about this in his book 'The Coddling of The American Mind'. A culture of 'me first; 'safe spaces' ; trigger warnings; self diagnosis; high anxiety, victimhood, oppression. Leading to an inablity to deal with, or function, in normal, everyday reality along with a total loss of emotional resillience.

I got mis-sexed fairly often in countries where women tend to be much smaller than me. It never bothered me, I often found it funny. This is because I wasn't pretending to be a woman, I actually am one.

TRAs don't give a shit about 'androgynous' women - or any women at all. They think this is another angle to use against those who support sex discernment. Having managed to convince themselves a six-foot bloke can credibly pass for female, it seems obvious to them that six-foot women may be taken for men.

Their endless bullshitting and intrusiveness has made it more likely that women may challenge 'butch' women in female spaces. What they don't get is that women's demeanour and speech are instantly recognisable as female, so all a woman needs to do is respond to the challenge.

@Meadowfinch I'm so sorry you went through that. I hope you're doing much better now. 💐

Women are better than men at accurately identifying sex at first sight. There is research on this. This seems to also be borne out in the replies. I think it's a large contribution to why so many men think they and other trans identified males pass.

That's no excuse for Nadia Whittome, Sarah Owen and all the other female tras though. You'd think they can't have met many trans identified men if they truly believe that they all pass.

As I usually keep my hair long, I am seldom misidentified; however, on occasion, I wear it very short. In the winter months, my hair is often tucked inside my coat and hidden by a knit cap, which occasionally leads to me being mistaken for a man.

I used to be 5'10" with broad shoulders, big hands, and big feet. I’ve shrunk a bit as I've got older. I've almost always worn men's clothes except for work. I think they're more comfortable and often better made. I have wide hips, though, so that has probably meant I get spotted as a man less often.

It's never bothered me to be mistaken for a man, especially if it's in the ladies. Women are looking out for other women. I like that.

I have a friend who's gone full on tra on behalf of her daughter who she's convinced is less safe in the women's toilets because of women potentially challenging gender non-conforming women.

Her daughter has short hair and wears clothes from the boys section and is secure in her identity as a teenage girl.

I can't see the difference between her experience and mine as a similarly presenting child in the 70s/80s, except I got called a boy all the time and yet managed to exist psychologically intact and in no way "unsafe".

Being missexed isn't the death-of-the-self that some seem to believe.

Interestingly, I never was challenged in public toilets, probably because no one expected a boy or man to be trying to get in there back in the day.

I have been challenged 'back in the day', but I got the feeling that the assumption was that I had mistakenly wandered into the wrong toilet, and
'Hello - this is the ladies!' was all that was needed for the embarrassed man to make his excuses and leave.

No need to invoke chapter and verse of the Supreme Court rulings on the Equality Act 2010 and subsequent EHRC Codes and call security to deal with a man who is deliberately transgressing in a space he knows he shouldn't be in.

'Hello, this is the ladies!' sufficed in my case, and a pleasant 'It's OK, I'm in the right place' from me was enough. No drama.

Is it only me who hears Karen Carpenter singing 'Calling occupants of interplanetary, quite extraordinary craft' when I see the thread title?😏

Interesting lyrics - the extra- terrestrials call a phone-in radio show to make contact with us Earthlings, and the DJ thinks it's a woman who he calls 'Babe' and cuts off the call...

I've also been asked if I was male or female. It's not a big deal because I don't have a fragile, special identity which is crushed by the reality that I actually have a sex. Therefore, I was happy to answer the question truthfully, everyone moved on with their day, and no feelings were hurt.

https://abcnews.com/US/utah-school-board-official-falsely-suggested-teen-girl/story?id=107100300

https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/431740/I-never-yelled-towards-the-girl-Kelowna-man-accused-of-accosting-child-at-track-meet-denies-allegations#431740 (to be unbiased, I sought out his side of the story)

https://www.itv.com/news/central/2022-12-26/cancer-survivor-challenged-at-public-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-a-man

That shows that bringing in cheek swab tests to protect the female category is, unfortunately, needed to protect all concerned. The years of lies and obfuscation have destroyed all trust.

The TRAs will never admit that they had a big hand in this, though.