More fuckwittery from Eva Wiseman, Observer

[ConstanzeMozart]

fuckwittery
the EHRC ‘insisting’ on single-sex toilets excluding trans people.
Well, only if they try to use the one for the wrong sex.
There are also some bingo points including trans people being excluded from public life, and women who don’t look feminine being harassed in the Ladies.

They do not work fine.
Not looking at the legal situation Australia and Canada. Perhaps ask some Canadian and Australian women.

Let's for a moment grant your (rather silly) contention that removing of rights from a group does not count as a harm, only specific instances of harm.

Not what was said at all.

Does a transwoman commit more or less sexual crime than the average woman, for example?

Unknown & irrelevant.

The over arching point being made that you are clearly missing was the actual impact isn't the existential threat being made out not that there wasn't any impact.

Well there's no broad spread movement for change nor is it an election defining issue in either country.

Unknown & irrelevant.

Known (see my answer). You don't seem to know much about this issue if you were unaware of that basic fact.

"Existential" threat? Firstly, some women are killed, but no, that is not what most women are arguing about. Again you seem very new to this terrain.

You were railing against people taking positions based on ignorance earlier. Start with yourself.

"Let's for a moment grant your (rather silly) contention that removing of rights from a group does not count as a harm, only specific instances of harm.

Not what was said at all."

You said that removing rights from 51% of the population does not count. You wanted examples of "trampling".

What did you mean by that then?

This bogus analysis has been debunked a zillion times on MR. Incarceration is not offending & in any case the trans population is too small to make any meaningful statistical conclusions about.

Sexual offences can include prostitution btw that trans women are more likely to be involved in.

You don't seem to know much about statistics either.

Prostitution is not illegal (though some related activities are).

Your point was that it's illegitimate for women to be concerned about this (a 'moral panic').

Why should women not be concerned about incarceration rates? Why must they use your preferred numbers, draw your preferred (lack of) conclusions?

We know from the figures that 46 of the transwomen are in prison for rape or attempted rape.

So, re-run the numbers only with those figures and without adjusting downwards the female figures and you get a ratio of 64x.

I've used your figures for the denominator here. I've erred in your favour on every calc. It still comes out really bad.

I actually think that, most of the time, they're all the same person! 😏

AIBU to mourn the simple times when everyone knew perfectly well who was a man and who was a woman and didn’t ever give it a second thought?

Now 20,000 angels must dance on the head of a pin in every single bloody thread thanks to men like Bailey. It’s exhausting.

They so often combine a surface logic with stubborn wrongness, which suckers me in every time! Like those Twitter posts that include a distracting error for engagement-farming purposes. I have not learned my lesson.

Need to do some work today so must put on all my internet blockers.

Prostitution is not illegal (though some related activities are).

"People are imprisoned or prosecuted for prostitution in the UK for the following main reasons:
Brothel-Keeping: Under UK law, any premises used by more than one person for sex work is considered a brothel. Because working alone can be highly dangerous, sex workers often share apartments or spaces for safety. However, doing so is illegal and can lead to prosecution. 1, 2, 3, 4]
Soliciting and Kerb-Crawling: It is illegal to loiter or solicit sex in a public street or in a vehicle (kerb-crawling). 1, 2]
Pimping and Trafficking: The highest penalties—up to seven years in prison—are reserved for third-party exploiters, pimps, and those engaged in human trafficking or forcing people into prostitution. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
Failure to Pay Fines: Many individuals, particularly street-based workers, accumulate repeated fines for soliciting. When these fines go unpaid, or they breach community orders or Anti-Social Behaviour Orders (ASBOs), they can face prison sentences. 1, 2]"

Your point was that it's illegitimate for women to be concerned about this (a 'moral panic').
Why should women not be concerned about incarceration rates?

Again the point being made is the impact is far lower than being asserted.

Why must they use your preferred numbers, draw your preferred (lack of) conclusions?

Why should they pay attention to the actual risks & not the ginned up one's? They can do what they want but its notable that its only the UK where this has become an issue. Most other western countries in Scandinavia, Europe, North America & Australia & Asian countries don't consider the risk worth changing the structure of society over.

Perhaps they take a different approach to scapegoating crime problems on minorities like the UK does by understanding them as they are being a symptom of poverty caused by bad governance.

And everyone in the PRC is fine with the political situation in their country, and their "rights" therein, evidenced by the fact that there is "no broad spread movement for change nor is it an election defining issue in either country."

See also North Korea.

Surely even you know how dishonest you are trying to be with statistics there.

That doesn’t mean it is working fine for women.

But it’s not about reality for you, is it?

Just about how things look, and whether you can hand wave away women’s concerns whilst spouting self righteous word wankery.

Unknown? Only if you don’t accept prison stats, or don’t want to know.

Irrelevant???

@Baileyonice I again appreciate your assistance in providing supporting references for my claims, albeit on the fairly minor point about prostitution laws.

"The impact is far lower than being asserted".

Mate. I'm trying to run with your logic and methods as far as they take us. You wanted a share-of-population as the measure of what's important. You wanted to look at serious issues. The relevant population for many trans debates is the female one (as often the crux is about access or inclusion of transwomen into female areas or categories). We look at the numbers. Suddenly you aren't so keen on numbers any more, the trans population is too small to draw meaningful conclusions from numbers.

its notable that its only the UK where this has become an issue.

OK, this is the measure now is it? Let's take a brief tour:

In the US, multiple states have restricted trans women from female prisons, sports and bathrooms, Title IX changes have been reversed. Sport Australia and other sports bodies have restricted trans women from female competition. Canada is reviewing its prison policies after high-profile cases of transwomen sex offenders in female prisons. Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Norway have all retreated from self-ID. Germany significantly watered down its proposed Self-Determination Act following public debate. Plenty more examples.

Now, no doubt, the goalposts are about to move again.

Why should they pay attention to the actual risks

Pays attention to actual risks.
>> No, no. Not those ones!

Perhaps they take a different approach to scapegoating crime problems ... by understanding them as they are being a symptom of poverty

Is sexual crime primarily driven by poverty? The one overwhelming factor predicting the risk of sexual offending is being male. Do you dispute this?

I'm not exaggerating. My personal experience is the complete upending of my immediate family. I have little doubt that my son feels something very similar. I know DW does. DD is also severely affected, and she's a trans ally. And yet DS will not discuss even the peripheral aspects of his rather sudden deep dive into gender identity as the defining characteristic of his life. We are to be obedient to the demands of the ideology we don't hold. This is coercive control even if he doesn't see it, except that we have our boundaries so are not easy to control, even DD who is very sympathetic.

As for identity, perhaps the biggest problem with gender identity is that it comes to dominate so many people's self-perception. Our identities are formed around many aspects of ourselves. Is it not unhealthy for gender to become to the one defining aspect of one's personality?