Article on "arguing with a TERF"

[MyAmpleSheep]

I love to keep up with the other side, so here's a lot of words just to say "it's complicated." meanwhile he ignores the obvious answer to his own question.

www.fasttrackfemme.com/p/why-you-cant-win-an-argument-with

At least we seem to have temporarily moved away from the pretence that the Righteous AI Man was only trying to generate data-driven, actuarially accurate, statistically analysed, discussion.

lol.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/gallery/hulls-superloos-truth-behind-nightmarish-8611659

Well I was 'being kind', it's what us ladies do don't cha know?

It cannot override another's woman's Yes

Yes it can. That's what veto means.

Thank the heavens for the Supreme Court ruling. Until that, those of us wanting or needing single sex facilities have been hounded out of our jobs, our unions, our clubs and organisations, been sued by vexatious litigants, pilloried online and received death threats.

Another woman's Yes can't trump a rape survivor's No to single sex counselling. Or a right to a female health professional. Or intimate care from women only.

Not all decisions should be democratic. If even one woman objects, that's sufficient.

MedicalConsensus just isn't getting the message that something that calls itself 'Women's Something' stops being a 'Women's Anything' when it admits transwomen, because transwomen are men.
So it becomes a 'Mixed Sex Something' - digital arts society, bowling club, soccer team, whatever. Still a lively, vibrant, successful society, club or team, hopefully, but a mixed one.

Oscar Wilde said We have really everything in common with America nowadays except, of course, language [my other fellow Dubliner George Bernard Shaw said something similar later] but clearly it's more than language that divides us - there is legislation here that requires things that are designated for women to be restricted to biological women.

It's not up to the 'agency' of individual people, men or women, or 'an organization exercising its own agency to support marginalized artists on its own terms' .to override the law.

I think you are operating in a different mindset, MedicalConsensus, where people - transwomen in this case - believe the law doesn't apply to them because they don't like it.

That has been tested in the UK, and a number of courts of law, including the highest in the country, have looked at the issue and made the ruling that transpeople do not have 'agency' to make up their own versions of laws and regulations.

this tedious bore still wanging on then?

he won't stop while he continues to get attention from women, the sad little chap

An organization’s policy is separate from the legal definitions of single-sex services.
Private organizations have the agency to define their membership criteria.
When an organization chooses to recognize trans women as women, then that becomes the standard for their community.
EA provides specific exceptions for single-sex services where it is a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim."
It does not mandate that organizations must be hostile to trans people or that they cannot choose, as a matter of policy, to be inclusive.
It remains a women's organization. They simply chose to organize around shared gender identity rather than biological sex.
That is a legal choice, and they are well within their rights to make it.

Automatic toilet doors randomly open.
Whether the man who was waiting outside, or the woman who was exposed in mid-pee was the more traumatised, I cannot tell, but judging from his expression, my money is on the man waiting outside😱
Of course I couldn't possibly reveal the identity of either party, you'll just have to accept the veracity of the story....

The patience on MN posters who continue to respond in good faith on threads like this continues to amaze me.

And breathe...

It remains a women's organization. They simply chose to organize around shared gender identity rather than biological sex.
That is a legal choice, and they are well within their rights to make it.

Haven't you read UK Supreme Court ruling that said that where the word 'woman' is used, the identifier is biological sex?

Doesn't it strike you as misleading that an organisation that organises around gender ID, which is a social construction, and includes women and men, should choose a specific verifiable biological term -as confirmed by the Supreme Court - like 'woman' to describe itself?

Wouldn't it be more rational to just leave the word 'woman' out of their title altogether, since they also include men who identify as woman?

Criterion! Criteria is the plural. I can cope with transatlantic 'bathrooms' and 'restrooms' and even 'math' instead of 'maths' but FFS, even Americans know one criterion, many criteria.

Rant over, as you were.

I know, I know🙄
Maybe I shouldn't, but I can't help pointing out inaccuracies and unfairness and bias and irrationality and illogical leaps when I see them.

It's in my DNA, as is being a woman😁

Finding and citing data is by for the most time-consuming thing in a discussion.
If I can avoid doing it then I'll save up my time. If everything else fails, that's when it's needed.
Beep-boop

Yeah, you wimmin are an odd bunch. 😀

That is a legal choice, and they are well within their rights to make it

Wrong again. Which is why Girl Guides and the Women's Institute have had to change their policy of trans inclusion. It was against the law, as clarified by the Supreme Court.

I waiting on the transwomen are smaller than other men data.

Fortunately I'm not holding my breath.

No. See WI and girl guides. They had the choice to allow males with a trans identity in but would have to rename themselves and change third charitable articles or exclude men. They could not do both. If it says “women’s” , the SC ruling says it must be single sex…. I know this is upsetting to you. Have you tried reframing your trauma?

Your post does not accurately reflect British law.

They simply chose to organize around shared gender identity rather than biological sex.
That is a legal choice, and they are well within their rights to make it.

As a matter of law it isn’t and they aren’t.

Yeah, that is a faulty design. I hope people have since learned to not repeat that mistake from almost forty years ago.

I'd say that medical was Samantha tempest in disguise he's so wrong about everything if it wasn't for the Americanisms and lack of any knowledge or understand of Uk law

One of the features of this board - still known as FWR though it's official title is Feminism: Sex and gender discussions, 'F:S&GD' has never caught on - is quite a rigorous attitude to quoting references, citing sources, that kind of thing.

It may be in reaction to the trans community's emphasis on 'feelings' - feeling like they are a woman, feeling like they were born in the wrong body, feeling that they are entitled to use the facilities they feel most comfortable using- GC feminists tend to rely on authoritative, verifiable sources.

This was very apparent in the discussion around the participation of a man with a DSD, Imane Khelif, in the women's boxing competition in the Paris Olympics - the quality of the scientific evidence on display in those threads was impressive, even drawing on the knowledge of posters who had academic/professional qualifications in relevant fields.

Similarly there will be posters with legal qualifications contributing to discussions about legal matters, like court/tribunal procedures.

Obviously, there's lots of room for women to express our feelings about our identity, our words, our spaces etc., but I think it's true to say that there is quite a high bar for statements which claim to be factual.

I've learnt a lot from this board, not by taking what other posters say at face value, but because I have read authoritative and reliable sources posters have linked to, and formed my opinions on those broad bases.

I dont know how many times it needs to be said, public toilets aren't panic rooms. They are places people go to when they need the loo.

That includes when people feel unwell, including potentially having miscarriages and heart attacks. Both women and men need the gaps under the doors for safety. But if there are gaps under the doors in mixed sex spaces, women will risk being victims of male sexual abuse.

The single occupancy, enclosed space in disabled toilets are a compromise that other dont have to make. Therefore can have single sex facilities with door gaps.

Public toilets are expensive to maintain. In my town there are no public toilets open in the evenings. I assume because the cost of keeping them safe and clean prohibits longer opening hours?

Im old enough to have lived through lots of super loos being installed, failing and being removed.

Unfortunately 'O.A.F.' on a t-shirt wouldn't work😁

Its crazy.

The most its going to show is that men taking certain drugs may be weaker than they used to be.

Individual bodily autonomy is different from organizational control.
A rape survivor absolutely has a 1:1 veto over who provides her personal counseling, and any woman has a veto over who provides her intimate medical care.