Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Article on "arguing with a TERF"

1000 replies

MyAmpleSheep · 05/06/2026 13:18

I love to keep up with the other side, so here's a lot of words just to say "it's complicated." meanwhile he ignores the obvious answer to his own question.

www.fasttrackfemme.com/p/why-you-cant-win-an-argument-with

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 12:36

I’m sure he feels he’s being extraordinarily patient with us.

ArabellaScott · 25/06/2026 12:40

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/06/2026 12:35

Cor you lot have been patient with this clown

he has kept my scrolling thumb busy

Hard work being a self appointed Mansplainer to the Wims.

MoistVonL · 25/06/2026 12:40

I remember the US study that showed the safest thing a young black American man can do in terms of avoiding violence and murder is to come out as a transwoman.

It's staggered me at the time - that was in the peak "most vulnerable" narrative era, around 2016. To hear trans activists say it, trans identifying people were walking targets.

But no, a black transwoman was at considerably less than half the risk of experiencing violence than other black men in the USA

Seethlaw · 25/06/2026 12:42

It's in the post Today I Built a TERF Annihilation App Because Apparently I Needed a Hobby

Note: not a "TERF Argument Annihilation App", but straight-up a TERF Annihilation App.

Male violence: in plain view once again.

ArabellaScott · 25/06/2026 12:42

Google AI is not at all happy with that assertion, Moist! 😂

I vaguely remember that, can you recall any details?

ArabellaScott · 25/06/2026 12:43

Seethlaw · 25/06/2026 12:42

It's in the post Today I Built a TERF Annihilation App Because Apparently I Needed a Hobby

Note: not a "TERF Argument Annihilation App", but straight-up a TERF Annihilation App.

Male violence: in plain view once again.

It's apparently quite hard to hide it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 12:44

MoistVonL · 25/06/2026 12:40

I remember the US study that showed the safest thing a young black American man can do in terms of avoiding violence and murder is to come out as a transwoman.

It's staggered me at the time - that was in the peak "most vulnerable" narrative era, around 2016. To hear trans activists say it, trans identifying people were walking targets.

But no, a black transwoman was at considerably less than half the risk of experiencing violence than other black men in the USA

Exactly.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 12:45

I wasn’t aware there was an actual study, the figures are clear though. And it was consistent across races, so white males and Latino males as well.

ArabellaScott · 25/06/2026 12:46

It's really unpleasant to realise how many men actively despise and wish violence on women.

Imagine talking about 'annhilating' women who disagree with you.

It's really fucking extreme and unnecessary.

ArabellaScott · 25/06/2026 12:47

As much as some men annoy, irritate and disturb me, I've never wished any kind of bad fate on them.

No, not even the violent ones. I just want them away somewhere safe so they can't hurt people.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 12:48

They reach for violent threats and fantasies remarkably quickly, don’t they?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 12:49

Not very ladylike.

GreyskySexRealistsky · 25/06/2026 12:51

Imagine, as a daughter, knowing your dad devised an app for annihilating women

Yeah, he might present it as "funny" but it indicates a certain mindset

OldCrone · 25/06/2026 12:52

MedicalConsensus · 25/06/2026 12:35

Nice, I'm glad you recognise that

You do realise you haven't said anything we haven't read before (about a million times), don't you?

GriseldaandMike · 25/06/2026 12:56

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 12:49

Not very ladylike.

That's OK, they don't have to do the be kiiiiind bit of ladying or the kids dental appointments bit or the caring for elderly parents bit or the being talked over bit, remember they can't be a woman like their mum, so those are the bits actual women can have as long as we share the lippy, swirling skirts and access to validation spaces.

MedicalConsensus · 25/06/2026 13:04

OldCrone · 25/06/2026 12:52

You do realise you haven't said anything we haven't read before (about a million times), don't you?

Yeah, there are just so many points to bring up, so I'm sure you've read the basis of most.
What I'm doing is presenting an observation in the way I believe the author meant to be interpreted, since I saw many people strawman what the author was trying to say.

MyAmpleSheep · 25/06/2026 13:12

OldCrone · 25/06/2026 12:52

You do realise you haven't said anything we haven't read before (about a million times), don't you?

I’m actually on here because I’m waiting for the one solid argument that will finally convince me about the validity of trans identities over sex.

But I am still waiting.

OP posts:
MoistVonL · 25/06/2026 13:14

ArabellaScott · 25/06/2026 12:42

Google AI is not at all happy with that assertion, Moist! 😂

I vaguely remember that, can you recall any details?

Yes, my AI had a hissy fit and started blathering on about risks to transwomen when I tried to look it up just now.

I did have it bookmarked at one point, but that was on a previous laptop with a different browser. When I'm not too busy sitting in a swing in the shade sipping iced coffee, I'll have a poke around for it.

MedicalConsensus · 25/06/2026 13:16

@GriseldaandMike
"Men aren't stronger than women just because they have testosterone in their system, they are stronger than women because testosterone makes them develop differently."

You are absolutely correct. And it brings us back to the friction point from the essay: the difference between a categorical biological boundary and an actuarial risk assessment.

I perceive your argument as stating that if a medically transitioned person does not achieve full biological equivalence with a natal female down to the bone structure, they must therefore represent a baseline physical risk significantly similar to a testosterone-dominant male.

But in actuarial math, risk is more like a gradient.
To use your "lever" analogy: a lever is only as effective as the kinetic force pushing it. While the limb length remains permanent, the muscle mass required to operate that lever at peak male force diminishes significantly without testosterone, as does the male-pattern aggression that often drives violence.
The physical risk profile of someone with male skeletal levers but suppressed testosterone is fundamentally different from both a natal female and a baseline male.
It is its own distinct actuarial category.
If your standard for a space is that an individual must have zero male-developed physiological traits, that is a perfectly rational categorical boundary. (And it is exactly why sports categories are debated, although personally, I think the current arguments are useless, since the reason why trans women were banned from playing women at chess still apply to other sports, yet, hopefully, we all can agree men are not biologically better than women at chess).
The essay's core observation is that we have to be honest about our metrics.
By requiring full biological equivalence rather than measuring the altered, reduced risk profile of the suppressed individual, that is enforcing a categorical rule, not calculating an actuarial equation.

MoistVonL · 25/06/2026 13:18

ArabellaScott · 25/06/2026 12:47

As much as some men annoy, irritate and disturb me, I've never wished any kind of bad fate on them.

No, not even the violent ones. I just want them away somewhere safe so they can't hurt people.

I dunno, is "fuck off with that misogynistic nonsense, fuck off some more, away with you, and no I don't care if it hurts your feelings" wishing them ill?

Because I do wish that.

Kinsters · 25/06/2026 13:22

If your standard for a space is that an individual must have zero male-developed physiological traits, that is a perfectly rational categorical boundary.

That's not it. The standard is that they must simply not be male.

MedicalConsensus · 25/06/2026 13:28

OldCrone · 25/06/2026 09:49

The way to break the loop is for men like him to accept that people can't change sex.

It's biologically impossible and it's enshrined in law as well.

True, people can't change sex. Pretty sure the author conceded that at the start of the essay

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 13:28

MedicalConsensus · 25/06/2026 13:04

Yeah, there are just so many points to bring up, so I'm sure you've read the basis of most.
What I'm doing is presenting an observation in the way I believe the author meant to be interpreted, since I saw many people strawman what the author was trying to say.

He’s a bad faith actor who uses silly whataboutery and pretends that this is about men buying lipstick in Boots, not women’s established sex based rights. Why should anyone care what he says about anything? I’m interested in why you’re so very invested.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/06/2026 13:29

MedicalConsensus · 25/06/2026 13:28

True, people can't change sex. Pretty sure the author conceded that at the start of the essay

Then why would he be included in spaces meant for the sex he doesn’t belong to? Tell me that and we might get somewhere.

Beowulfa · 25/06/2026 13:30

MedicalConsensus · 25/06/2026 13:16

@GriseldaandMike
"Men aren't stronger than women just because they have testosterone in their system, they are stronger than women because testosterone makes them develop differently."

You are absolutely correct. And it brings us back to the friction point from the essay: the difference between a categorical biological boundary and an actuarial risk assessment.

I perceive your argument as stating that if a medically transitioned person does not achieve full biological equivalence with a natal female down to the bone structure, they must therefore represent a baseline physical risk significantly similar to a testosterone-dominant male.

But in actuarial math, risk is more like a gradient.
To use your "lever" analogy: a lever is only as effective as the kinetic force pushing it. While the limb length remains permanent, the muscle mass required to operate that lever at peak male force diminishes significantly without testosterone, as does the male-pattern aggression that often drives violence.
The physical risk profile of someone with male skeletal levers but suppressed testosterone is fundamentally different from both a natal female and a baseline male.
It is its own distinct actuarial category.
If your standard for a space is that an individual must have zero male-developed physiological traits, that is a perfectly rational categorical boundary. (And it is exactly why sports categories are debated, although personally, I think the current arguments are useless, since the reason why trans women were banned from playing women at chess still apply to other sports, yet, hopefully, we all can agree men are not biologically better than women at chess).
The essay's core observation is that we have to be honest about our metrics.
By requiring full biological equivalence rather than measuring the altered, reduced risk profile of the suppressed individual, that is enforcing a categorical rule, not calculating an actuarial equation.

Have you actually read the UK Supreme Court's judgement in FWS from April last year? It is written in clear accessible English and explains rationally and succinctly why the word "woman" does not included males.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.