Be Kind 2.0 and the "Persuasive TRA"

[BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth]

This is a spinoff from another thread so as not to derail the original.

I thought it would be helpful to have a separate thread to discuss, and document, a phenomenon I have been seeing more regularly recently: the Persuasive TRA.

It occurred to me, after a few posters noted that the recent U-turns by a couple of politicians, and the wheedling TRA responses to the EHRC guidance, were akin to an abuser changing tactics and also asking us to "help" them in the new single-sex regime, that the whole thing is starting to pan out exactly as an abusive relationship often does. When is the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship? Normally, when she is leaving.

Well, women are leaving the abusive relationship with non-reality that men forced upon us some 15 years ago, and I would argue that now might be our most dangerous/difficult moment.

This is what I posted on the other thread:

I'm starting to see a bit more of what I am calling (in my own head) "Persuasive TRA." Now that they have lost everything that they bullied women for, some activists seem to be changing tack. Women must now fix the situation that TRAs have found themselves in. It seems to pivot on a sort of Be Kind 2.0.

I think women who have been in the game long enough will see through it, but we should be watchful. Stonewall is pivoting, activists are pivoting, and they will be preying on women's socialized kindness: watch for the destination and be on your guard.

I have read several posters on different threads appealing to everyone (women) to help calm trans-identified people's (men's) fears about what this new reality will look like, what it will mean for them (the men) now that they can't just do whatever they want anymore. What about the men's toilets? Are they safe? Where will they go? (Who will fix this problem?)

Well, apparently it is a problem that women can fix, if they just take a moment to think about it. Trans-identified men will be unsafe in the men's, so women need to join the fight to give these men something of their own.

Notice the pivot? The pleading? If you just... If you weren't so.... It can be different if you just... Sound familiar? To any woman who is in, or has escaped from, an abusive relationship, this will be all too familiar.

This is Be Kind 2.0. It's very similar to the original, except that instead of being forced to enjoy our abuse, we are being asked to fix it. And the "Persuasive TRAs" seem to be mobilizing, from what I have seen.

It won't start in the middle (with the women); it will start at the top (infiltrating government, think tanks, charities, etc.) and the bottom (schools). But they will use women to get this moving. Why not? It worked so well last time. And I believe that organizations like Stonewall will be leading the charge: the campaign can be something like Safe Spaces for Trans+ : All of Us Together.

If anyone else has seen this in action, it might be useful to keep a record of it here.

I imagine this thread will eventually be taken over by activists, but, until then, I would be interested in your thoughts.

You are making a couple of unsubstantiated assumptions.

The first is that all your child's unhappiness stems from the world's failure to fully accept them as a boy (although they are, I assume, quite obviously a girl)

The second is that gender critical women seeking to defend women's spaces from being encroached on by men are somehow responsible for all the horrendous bullying experienced by your child at the hands of, as far as I can tell, mostly men and boys. That if women weren't standing up for their rights, it would never occur to these men and boys to bully your gender non-conforming child.

That transgenderism is a real thing, rather than an escape hatch from the curse of femaleness, clutched at by young girls frightened and made miserable by the way society treats women.

Your child's best hope for the future is for women to win their fight and ensure safe places are available and respected for everyone of the female sex, regardless of what gender they identity with.

Something in the water in TRA circles today I think, the drama and handwringing and turning the stories of vulnerable children into cannon fodder is off the scale in more places than just FWR.

Suspect it's the realisation that society is finally telling this immensely powerful lobby NO for the first time. The clarity of the SC judgment and the EHRC guidelines confirming that men have no right to be in places where girls and women undress after all the years of breaching boundaries must be a shock.

Children have always been weaponised by the trans lobby in a myriad of ways and this is just a continuation of that.

I agree,and it's possible that, especially for some men, this is the first time since they were children that they have heard the word "no" directed at them.

And made many more thousands relieved not to have to go along with the pretence that they can’t tell one of their members is male.

It's another tactic, of course, and a classic example of the "persuasive" activist that we shall see a lot more of, I suspect. The only problem is that they are using old arguments that we are immune to now. Even 18 months ago, I think a lot of posters would really have tried to argue effectively and convince. Now, I can see that we have moved on to "just no."

So, it will be interesting to see what the new arguments will consist of, if there are any new arguments to be made.

It's like trying to stay one step ahead of a two-year-old who will spend the whole day thinking up ways to make you say "yes, you may have chocolate cake for dinner."

Talk to men.

Women aren't the problem.

Bye.

All the terf movement has accomplished is a massive increase in anti-trans violence. But then, it was meant to.
Links please. To both the massive increase AND your statement about the intentions.

I don't automatically accept anyone's word who are so keen to lie to their own child, and letting their child think they can change sex is a humongous lie.

Yeah, that massive increase in anti-trans violence, and the court cases that must have followed. And all the reports of tribunals where transpeople had been unfairly treated, or denied service. I must have missed all the headlines in the Guardian and the Independent.

I did ask for evidence, but the transparent one failed to provide it.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed can I suggest directing your outrage to the trans activists who have really done a number on a generation of children like yours. Imagine feeding children the most ridiculous idea that it would be easy to change sex. These kids were told that no one would be allowed question or comment or disagree. Only affirmation of their decision. What arrogance on the part of the trans ideology activists, forcing people to collude with the deception or be labelled transphobic. Children's books, educational literature, tv shows, online accounts all pushing our children towards the normalisation of the idea that children are so often born on the wrong body. Adults who should have known better too scared to say No to the nonsense. I'd be absolutely fuming at the trans rights activists if I were in your shoes.

Congratulations, this is the type of thing that (as far as I can see is talking about).

Its not just the list on how your trans child was harrassed and bullied, As schools have bought in to this so much that its unlikely to have happened.

Its not just the twisting of words and reframing them in trans appropriate languge, after all its "cis" men that we all need to look out for.

But its the rewriting of history in that "Trans people aren't organising against women" when we have the receipts to show that they have .

And then the "chasing ghosts".

You are doing trans people no favours by pretending that trans people are just the victims of those nasty "cis" people.

You will be saying next that trans people are not trying to remove women's rights,

What I'm reading is that parents (or sisters, or brothers, or aunts, uncles, grandparents etc) who took the easy path "yes honey, perhaps you've been born in the wrong body" did so expecting us to pave the easy road for them with our rescinded rights. Because they avoided the difficult road of saying "no" to their kids, their social circle, their schools, doctors, therapists, governments, media etc (as the TERFS have done), they just expected us to keep it easy for them by smiling and patting them on the shoulder. Thats how women should behave. They hoped we would lie for them and teach our children to lie as well, all so they didn't have to do the hard work of questioning, being in conflict, critical thinking and arguing against the zeigiest. And because we said no, they are furious. Because we won't affirm them, and lie to ourselves, and our own kids, they can't reach the golden horizon they've promised their children, where everyone will accept wrong-sex identification as fact. They are stuck. Deep down they know they've let their kids down, let women down, and they know they are doing it for a movement that is birthed from porn and aims for the reduction of safeguarding for societies most vulnerable: women, children, and elderly women and disabled women and girls in particular. We are a mirror to them. They look at us and hate that we reflect the truth. I am so sorry for the kids let down by adults who should have protected them, but instead protected themselves from a bit of discomfort.

This.

The answer is No.

We do not have to lie. We do not have to be support humans to those who had parents who were too gutless to say no and take their child to a suitable therapist and instead made the whole situation worse by going along with and pretending that the lie could be real.

This isn't transphobia. This is reality biting you on the arse.

I wish I could pin this to the top of the thread! This sums up the problem perfectly, thank you! And it's the lemming-like acceptance from some parents who should have been the grownups in the room (including in my own extended family) that I will find it hardest to get over.

To be fair, parents in many cases have also been manipulated, guilt tripped and bamboozled by these activists. Ive been there and I do sympathise. When education services, counsellors, medical professionals, the media, autism 'experts' are all telling you to affirm, affirm affirm it's hard not to get swept along with the nonsense. When a child is self harming or telling you they are going to end their life, parents will feel helpless and rely on the professionals. I had MN, I researched, I never affirmed. I didn't listen to those experts. I found Sex Matters. I remained calm. Time passed, my daughter has moved on. We're one of the lucky ones. I despise celebrities who have glamourised their children's gender identity.

Yes, I do agree. I suppose my family has been one of the unlucky ones, which obviously affects how I view the machinations of the past 20 years! I'm glad you managed to avoid the worst.

The biggest disservice done to your child has been that by trans activists. Until they started insisting on everyone kowtowing to their demands, trampling all over women's rights and telling women they couldn't be called 'women' or 'mothers', that they weren't allowed to 'breastfeed' and that anything intended for women should be forced to include trans women, many of us were happy for trans people to go quietly about their day while we went quietly about ours.

Being a mother is so much more than simply being the 'birthing parent'. And breast feeding can be incredibly challenging, a friend of mine with a STEM PhD said it was the hardest thing she had ever done. Diminishing women's experiences by erasing words from the dictionary cannot, in any light, be seen as a harmless accommodation, but there are serious medical consequences, as well. Smear tests can save lives. Not all women know what a cervix is, particularly in deprived areas or women who do not speak good English. Saying women need to have regular smear tests is unambiguous – "this is something women need". Saying 'people with a cervix' need one does not get the message to everyone.

Activists' insistence that trans women must have access to women's spaces purely for reasons of safety, rather than simply because they think they are entitled to access them, is undermined by the fact mixed spaces have never been good enough. And I don't mean just toilets. On Hampstead Heath, there are three bathing ponds: one for men, one for women and one mixed. The trans lobby insisted TW MUST have access to the women's pond. As a result, many women who used it no longer feel able to. That's not inclusive. Beavers, Cubs and Scouts all accept boys and girls, but no, trans activists insisted trans girls MUST be accepted to Rainbows, Brownies and Guides as well.

I have just one question, which no pro-trans advocate has ever been able to answer for me in simple English. Why do you believe the wants/needs/safety of trans people are more important than the wants/needs/safety of women?

Don't obfuscate with stock phrases like 'trans rights are human rights' or 'trans rights and women's rights are the same thing'. Simply tell me why it is that one person should matter more than another.

Great post mrshoho

Perhaps transparently could link to any anti-trans violence? The tribunals?
Don't be angry at women, transparently. We're standing up for women for privacy, dignity and safety. Why is that a bad thing?

And it's all men who offend against women, whether or not they claim a trans identity or not. There are plenty (sadly) of facts and figures out there.
Is this really hard to grasp?

Transparently needs to direct anger elsewhere and desist from the bloody "cis"
Sorry their child has experienced bullying, but it's time to say "no you cannot change sex and no you were not born in the wrong body" instead of the continuous affirmation.
No such thing as a trans child.

I despise the politicians who effectively have let down people like your family members and my family member due to their lack of due diligence and safeguarding, coupled with virtue signalling and promising away other people's rights for something that isn't actually achievable in the end anyway.

It's all snake oil and a con. That's the utterly depressing thing.

promising away other people's rights for something that isn't actually achievable in the end anyway.

Other people's rights as well as the affected child's/young adult's rights! So many children and teenagers had the right to normal, angst-ridden, yet ultimately character- and person-building puberty, growth, and health (physical and mental), and all that was taken from them because too many adults did not say:

Here's the deal: you will never be able to identify out of your physical problems, your sex, or your mental health problems. We all have them, but we can help you to manage, and hopefully overcome, these issues until you are old enough to handle it all yourself. And none of this will involve chopping off body parts just because you don't like the way they look, and any drugs you take will be carefully prescribed and will tackle your mental health issues first. And you will have counselling, and lots of it. And at the end of it all, whether you are happier or not, you will still be the same sex you were born as.

I'm glad that some adults were able to do that. It's hard, but that's what it takes. The professionals and politicians who abnegated their responsibilities should all lose their livelihoods over this. Every single one of them.

There is no organised invasion of women's spaces.

There has been a very well-organised removal of women's spaces and a well-organised insistence that men belong in those spaces.

Trans women have been quietly using the Ladies toilet forever.

Whether or not women agreed that they should be in there. In the past they kept a very low profile and avoided announcing their presence and videoing themselves on twitter. Not hanging around emphatically repairing their makeup. Much less asking a colleague when she was going to get changed in front of him. As long as anyone imagines that could possibly be acceptable behaviour - and a transwoman did and his management did too or the Darlington nurses would not have had to bring their legal case - there can be no more "quiet" about it.

But now, most young trans people cannot use any toilet when they go out. Their lives have been made even more intolerably difficult, and a bigger target drawn on their backs.

These young people are scared silly because they've all convinced each other that something terrible will happen if they do. The apologies and moaning and wailing from politicians only makes their fears worse. Politicians make it sound as if there is something real for these young people to be afraid of, something real to be apologised for. There isn't.

They can still use single-user unisex toilets, of which there are plenty nowadays, and no-one is going to stop a transwoman from using the gents or a transman from using either one. And if there's no unisex option then the Equality Act 2010 gives them ammunition to demand some and there still there seems to be plenty of goodwill from all sorts of people and organisations (less jaded than MN FWR) to provide them.

I struggled with various things in my teens and twenties. I went to the otherside of the world to try and get away from them.

The reality is though, the problem was internal. And I was just trying to runaway from myself. Life lesson: the one person you can't run away from is yourself.

So many of these kids are trying to run away from themselves and their problems. So they go into this hyper anxious avoidant type behaviour of their own sex. Problem being the one thing you shouldn't do with avoidant type behaviour is enable it, because it spirals without solving the underlying issue. It has to be dealt with at some point.

I think we are seeing a massive amount of this in a whole generation in various forms because parents have always over protected their kids from reality and told the kids they can do. When it comes to the crunch there is a point where no matter what the issue, you can't avoid it forever.

Transgenderism is a whole ideological movement around avoidant behaviour. When it reaches a certain level it impacts on everyone around this person in a negative way, and can become utterly toxic and even abusive.

Once you understand this, so much of what is going on becomes much more understandable. Part of it requires family members to understand that their own behaviour in enabling can be problematic in its own right. This is where affirmation only should always be a no go zone. That way lies madness because you aren't haven't two way respectful conversations where both parties listen - whatever the situation its unhealthy.