Belief discrimination – take a “small claim” says Sex Matters!

[IwantToRetire]

If you are subjected to unlawful discrimination by a service provider, you can take what is known colloquially as a “small claim” to the county court.

This article relates to the law in England and Wales (in Scotland there is something similar called “simple procedure”).

Full details at https://sex-matters.org/practical-help/take-a-small-claim-for-belief-discrimination/

The risk, as I'm sure you well know and are just being obtuse about, is you will lose.

The other thing not mentioned at all in the article this because all of this is based on a new ruling and new guidance, none of the issues you might be bringing a claim about are particularly well tested, and some not at all, so you'd be the "test case", and there are considerable grey areas around the right to belief vs manifestation of that belief, as the Sandy Peggie case showed (itself proof Sex Matters aren't legally infallible).

I'm sorry I seem to have stepped on a sacred cow or something here, but while I support the work of Sex Matters, they are not beyond criticism, and no one should be beyond criticism, and I should be allowed to have a criticism without it being immediately dismissed by people who are inexplicably defensive. Do you work for Sex Matters or something? Or are you just not great at nuance and understanding not everything is either wholly good or wholly bad?

https://www.gov.uk/get-help-with-court-fees

I believe the point is that you have no risk of massive legal costs from the other side being awarded against you.

It is a known, up front cost to take a case. People are not so stupid as to go into a small claim without understanding how the system works, it isn’t complicated.

No you are absolutely correct to flag up the pros and cons. Sex Matters have done the same in the video, on their website and in the links to Citizens Advice and so on.
At the end of the day, though, it is small claims court, not the Old Bailey, and a Letter before Action plus mediation should hopefully resolve the issue satisfactorily.
Kind of you to worry so much about the women and men who might do this though.

In Scotland counter sueing isn't a thing. I dont know about England. Is that the risk?

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/small-claims/making-a-small-claim/

The other person or business usually has to reply to your letter within 14 days. It could be longer if the matter is complicated.
If they don’t agree with your claim, they should say:

• the reasons why and which facts they don’t agree with
• if they’re planning to make a claim of their own (a ‘counterclaim’)

If the other person or business makes a counterclaim, check the facts they’re relying on and make a note of anything you disagree with. Also try to find evidence to prove they’re wrong. For example, if you told your landlord about repairs but they ignored you and claim you damaged your home, find proof of when you told them.

SM is making it clear that you should not engage with this process if you made a scene or were pretty drunk, for example. Best case is to have some evidence eg a recording or witnesses to the reason given for refusing a service, or maybe a photo of a 'Terfs not welcome here' sign, or similar.

I was at the science museum in the ladies toilet a transwomsn came in . I told him "this is the ladies". He said "I know " and continued in there . I told security . As far as I know security did nothing as I saw him later wandering round the museum . I mentioned this in the feedback form I received after the event anonymous form .Do I have a case?

Ooh I've got another Can I take Park Run to court if a man runs in the women's category and bumps my place down ?

So there is the possibility of a counter claim.

I agree that risks need to be laid out clearly.

And also noting that the processes differ within the different UK jurisdictions.

So there is the possibility of a counter claim.

I am struggling to think on what basis any counter claim could be made by the service provider. Merely being guilty of wrongthink doesn't cut it.

It seems fair to me tbh. As the mum of a family that has had a juggernaut driven through it in the last couple of years since our son was brainwashed and enabled into a trans identity, I think it is only fair that such action is taken to stop this madness. Or at the very least to get people to stop and think about the complexities of the issue. Not just assume it’s like being gay in previous decades.

I agree. Most of the online advice is about disagreements over money, rather than PC discrimination.

Don't forget that the process is the punishment. They would probably try any counterclaim they could come up with. The best you would have with that would be a lot of stress and time taken up, even if it never gets to a court.

I agree with previous posters that women need to follow legal advice if they're going to try this.

At some point, someone is going to have to take a service provider to court. We can't just let them say "no, we don't feel like following the law " but I do worry that this is what a lot of them will try.

I also deeply resent having to take someone to court for unlawfully failing to "respect my belief" that men are not women. It's a bloody fact, not a belief!

But, it's been said many times before, and it is what it is.

There is no possibility of a counterclaim. As a customer you don’t owe any duty of non harassment or discrimination to a service provider.

How were you harmed?

I was upset. My evening was spoilt . My feelings of safety and dignity were impaired

If you feel that you can stand up in front of a district judge and argue with a straight face that the venue had made itself a hostile environment for you by you seeing a man enter the women’s toilets then write a letter before action, say how much you should be paid to make you square, and if it doesn’t pay you then issue a claim.

I suspect a judge will say that’s not reasonable; but you can try.

Women of faith whose religion is breached by being lured into what are in fact mixed sex spaces labelled as single sex should have a fairly easy win in this context, I'd have thought.

If something is mixed sex it should be labelled as such - the 'no nuts' argument.

And yes the EA2010 requirement not to discriminate applies to service providers but not to individuals.

And the problem of course is not in the harm caused by any individual instance of this happening, it is how many women will generally self-exclude from public life completely if it cannot be guaranteed that a space labelled as female only is in fact that.

I could say that , it actually did spoil my evening. And the science museum staff didn't take it seriously

How much money do you think you ought to be paid in recompense?

There's some guidance here:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/how-value-discrimination-claim-decided-england-and-wales

I cant be bothered to find the original post that started all this gloom and despondency, but Sex Matters is not a membership organisation, we haven't all signed up to it and become moronic sheep following Sex Matters HQ.

Whilst it is possible somebody would not double check before taking action, the main purpose of this is surely to try and make women more pro-active.

Some groups have won victories for all us, eg FWS, SM, but for these to have a real impact it is up to all of us to utilise whatever tools we have. And be grateful that somebody has done the underlying basics for us.

If anyone genuinely thinks that way the information is provided, you should let Sex Matters now, that you think it is possible some may be misled.

I am sure if they felt it necessary that could add clarifying footnotes.

I think most of the thread will share your view point.

And not sure you should waste your energy replying to someone who no doubt want believe you, but just hopes you will keep rising to their look at me being clever remarks.

Why anyone would be commenting on FWR about there is no problem with TW in women's toilets, when it is an issue that has dominated the forum for years just seems a tiny bit suspicious.

Listen to the podcast that goes with this. It’s not as you fear.

They are very much - dont dash off and start launching loads of claims. It’s a lot to do amd deal with emotionally. Helen Joyce said she’s discriminated against on a daily basis but won’t be dashing off to court unless theres a particularly egregious example. They mention a couple of examples eg a whole group birthday booking cancelled at a restaurant because one person was recognised as a TERF. Thats quite extreme and possibly worth challenging.

They also talk about asking for an apology and policy change - the aim is to stay out of court and encourage lawfulness

HolyMonthOf

IMO and I am not a lawyer so it's just my opinion.

What you could do as a starter is write a strongly worded letter to the management of the Science Museum. Reporting what you have just told us. You told the man that he was in the Ladies and he acknowledged it. When you mentioned it to Security, they appeared not to take any action, because you later saw the man wandering around the Museum. Meanwhile your enjoyment of the evening was spoilt. You could then ask them when they intend to accept their responsibility under the law - that Toilets should only be used by the Sex designated at the door. I suspect you will get some mealy mouthed response or they will do a Sunderland Minster and badge the Ladies as mixed sex.

I suspect the problem will be that there doesn't appear to be any law to stop someone going into the loos of the wrong sex.

So what should we do if this sort of thing happens to us - as long as we are not desperate to go to the loo, immediately leave and find security to advise them that they need to tell the man to leave?

Would we be in order to take a photo of the man leaving the loos? Such a photo would make it clear to the management that they are not enforcing single sex provisions and could be taken to court, and that the law is clear that when single sex facilities are provided, that it what they should be.

Long post sorry. But given that there is normally a queue for the Ladies in public buildings and never seems to be for the Gents, any man going into the Ladies is most likely seeking validation.