Amazing TERFy pushback from friend on reddit

[DelusionalBeliefSystemMaintainedByBullying]

A man who directed a friend group to start using they/them pronouns and calling him Ashley reports he received the following private message from a friend. I’m pasting the whole thing in, because it hits so many good points that I don’t see allowed on Reddit and because I’m guessing it will be deleted. It might be fake, but if not, it seems a sign of spreading sanity and willingness to speak up.

Predictable responses here.

Response from Peter in private chat:

Ok, it's time for my portion of the serious conversation. I did consider having this conversation in person, but as you have displayed a pattern of preferring difficult conversations over text as well as my wanting to represent my thoughts exhaustively I'm choosing to at least start via text.

First, I want to emphasize this comes from a place of compassion, and I am duley interested in the best outcomes for everyone. That being said I want to make my stance known, as well as my reasoning. I've delayed hosting another magic session to ensure I've had enough time for contemplation; this includes well over a month of explicit research as well as a generally following the topic over the last 7 years. I have done a significant amount of reading, sought guidance from friends and family, and quite a bit of introspection to come to my conclusions. Among other things I have reviewed the SCOTUS argumentation for the transgender case last year, the Cass report, Yale's answer to the Cass report, John Money, and looked into a number of documentaries both pro and critical of gender ideology. I do remain open minded and welcome additional information and context, but at this time I consider myself reasonably well informed.

Originally, I was supportive of the trans movement, as it sought to draw parallels with the gay rights movement before it. I think the government shouldn't be involved in marriage at all. The fact remains that marriage does provide benefits from the government and equal protection demands everyone has the ability to enter in a marriage contract with the government. Easy to justify legally and personally because I don't actually care what sexual activity folks do privately as long as it involves consent, and doesn't involve kids, animals, or your blood relative, etc. However, after doing the best I can to educate myself, I've come to the conclusion that the trans movement is very different than gay rights. While gay rights involve fair treatment by the government, and doesn't involve private citizens; by contrast as you've displayed in the commander chat the trans movement requires all other private citizens to alter their behavior. Rainbows, bright outfits, flamboyant behavior, women's clothing don't actually make you gay or not gay, its simply an attraction to men and much like me and a lot of folks don't care for stoner culture while simultaneously enjoying weed you can be critical of a subculture or behavior without being hatful of the underlying sexual preference. This has been a source of consternation for me as I'm interested in supporting my friend, but I'm also interested in the truth and validating behavior I find worthwhile. In every other scenario in my life, validation, praise, and commendation are things I reserve for achievement, adding value to my life, or behavior I find virtuous like enriching the lives of others. I find myself unable to justify changing my behavior in this circumstance, though my mind remains open.

I need to address your behavior toward some women in my life. I've spoken with Marsha, and observed some of it myself. From what I've gathered you have a pattern of seeking validation from women. It happened with Cindy; it's now happening with Marsha, and it's not unreasonable to guess its expanded to others I'm unaware of as well. Marsha has made a conscious effort to include and socialize with you, and thus far you've made little to no effort to acknowledge her as a person. It's not a stretch to assume she's being used as a source of female validation due to the nature of your conversations, and lending her a book doesn't exactly expand your relationship to that level of intimacy. That alone may be fine, but a complicating factor is you're my friend and you regularly spend time at our house. So she feels less empowered than she should to state plainly the conversations are inappropriate for stage and nature of the friendship, so it comes off as one sided and demeaning. She is more than just a woman, she is an actual person with feelings, hobbies, ideas, and character. She remains open to friendship in an earnest and reciprocal capacity, but not as a validation source.

Marsha shared with me a number of concerning things you've discussed:
Keeping track of misgendering -This is a grievance (or victim) mindset, and not particularly constructive. I get misgendered by my mail weekly.
Seeking validation from a credit card, legal name, or government identification - None of these things can love or accept you, they represent nothing particularly worthwhile. No accomplishment, no merit, no virtue. Rather than becoming a better person, living up to your ideals this looks like a shortcut to additional validation. As in Romeo and Juliet "A rose by any other name...", in this case nothing really changes and seeking any validation from a soulless credit card company that will happily remove its "pride flag" logo in Saudi Arabia is nonsensical when thought through.

Your emphasis on therapy to get hormones - As someone who has dealt with mental illness most of my life, I implore you to seek non-affirming help from medical professionals, at least as part of your process. Medication and surgery is a last resort, and what I've found when scouring the evidence is the procedures are risky with lifelong side effects and the resulting mental health outcomes are mixed at the absolute best. Minnesota has a law that, while not explicitly forbidding any treatment that is non-affirming it is worded ambiguously enough that most practices will not want to risk the lawsuit. Thus, you will have to explicitly seek to have your gender and source of unhappiness assertions challenged. Failing to be challenged can and does result in gender identity disorder or autogynephilia masking root cause and comorbidities. If you do ultimately choose to proceed with hormones or surgery, I hope it's after visiting a clinical psychologist, one or more therapists, and perhaps a psychiatrist and exhaustively exploring all other possible coping mechanisms. However, you need to figure out if the problem you want to solve is not feeling comfortable, not being happy, or anything else. Regardless nobody else is responsible for your happiness, so folks choosing not to participate in gender affirmation shouldn't hold sway over your self-worth. If you are considering medical intervention and the desired outcome is centered around other people's behavior that indicates a deeply flawed and concerning mindset in my opinion.

The idea that men can be women is demonstrably untrue. There have been plenty of ill applied nuance, reclassifying mental disorders, bullying, and other word gymnastics like gender vs. sex. to force others like me who mostly don't wish to participate to capitulate. It won't change the fact that a woman is an adult human female.

I find it very Orwellian particularly "2+2=5" that stating men and women are different is somehow phobic or otherwise unkind. Much like the fat acceptance movement with the mantra "healthy at any size" was measurably untrue; I find the same here. I see little difference between the flat earth movement and the trans movement, particularly because both offer a community of likeminded people, a sense of belonging, with an emphasis on "debunking" established norms or measurable reality. I remain open to being convinced otherwise, but at this time all the evidence I've come across, all the arguments for and against lead me to this conclusion. Much like I wouldn't feel comfortable validating that an obese friend of mine were "healthy" or feeding them unhealthy food at my house, calling an anorexic person fat to suit their image of themselves, or condoning or assisting in a depressed persons suicide, I don't feel comfortable participating in the validation you've requested. Validation is based on virtue or accomplishment. I hope I'm wrong and you've done the work, the introspection, but I'm not seeing evidence of it and you have not shared anything with me to indicate it. The baseline mental health recommendations involve regular exercise, sleep, and a healthy balanced diet I hope you are making efforts on that front.

You've inadvertently (or perhaps purposely) coopted our commander meetups. Rather than slinging spells with the bros, we have pivoted to that PLUS validating YOU. Now, no matter how supportive each of our friends is, to comply with your request requires them to navigate complex board states in magic while also making sure to have you, your feelings, and your pronouns in their head. Now, the typical argument is it's not a big ask, which at face value I do agree. However, if like me someone does not believe men can ever become women then it constitutes capitulation to a falsehood to at best placate someone else and at worst helps facilitate a path forward focused on ill justified medicalization. It's also more work; you are now more work to be around while complying with your request. I don't want to imply you are not worth it, I want to draw attention to the absolute fact that a willing adjustment requires a deliberate and conscious effort that includes corrections and negative feelings for erring. That I will not require at my house, so those who wish to participate and seek your pronoun reminders are welcome to, but it will not be required in my home. I'm aware I have undue control because I typically like hosting people for a verity of events including commander, which is a reason why I have not made any of this known in the commander chat yet. I also don't want you to feel attacked or excluded. If you choose not to participate, or you wish to host/facilitate your own events with particular emphasis on your preference you are well within your rights to do so, as are the others who host in our commander group. The point is everyone is making their own choice while being respectful to each other and our autonomy as individuals.

I realize that my statements revolve around me, my thoughts, and my behavior. I'm aware that although I believe your request does invite feedback, the majority I've provided was not actually solicited. In short, I realize you didn't ask. I do feel the need to explain myself and my actions carefully and thoroughly though to ensure clear communication regarding a sensitive topic. It is not out of arrogance, a hatred of you or anyone else, or some sense of moral superiority. It is not to indicate that I expect you or anyone else to accept my point of view. It does however, constitute a manifestation of a distinct fact. That we can only control ourselves, our own actions, thoughts, and feelings and nobody else's.
So to be clear, I remain your friend, and I'll continue to invite you to relevant events I host. I expect you to apologize to Marsha for the way you've behaved thus far. Marsha does seem genuinely open to reciprocal friendship. Finally, and notably unless more information changes my mind, I'll not participate in a new nickname. I also wouldn't call Greg "Bill" or any extra name I don't want to participate in; in a vacuum a nearly 40 year old person changing their name looks more like a midlife crisis to me than anything else, and due to the concerns I've already noted I don't feel comfortable participating. If it is truly a request, then at this time I am declining.

I hope you find sustainable happiness regardless of anything else, and I hope we remain friends.

I find his objection to the man using the women in his life as a source of validation especially remarkable:

From what I've gathered you have a pattern of seeking validation from women. It happened with Cindy; it's now happening with Marsha, and it's not unreasonable to guess its expanded to others I'm unaware of as well. Marsha has made a conscious effort to include and socialize with you, and thus far you've made little to no effort to acknowledge her as a person. It's not a stretch to assume she's being used as a source of female validation due to the nature of your conversations, and lending her a book doesn't exactly expand your relationship to that level of intimacy. That alone may be fine, but a complicating factor is you're my friend and you regularly spend time at our house. So she feels less empowered than she should to state plainly the conversations are inappropriate for stage and nature of the friendship, so it comes off as one sided and demeaning. She is more than just a woman, she is an actual person with feelings, hobbies, ideas, and character. She remains open to friendship in an earnest and reciprocal capacity, but not as a validation source.

Here’s another snippet - I can’t decide if this is too good to be true. These men seem to be in Minnesota, a very liberal state in the US.

The idea that men can be women is demonstrably untrue. There have been plenty of ill applied nuance, reclassifying mental disorders, bullying, and other word gymnastics like gender vs. sex. to force others like me who mostly don't wish to participate to capitulate. It won't change the fact that a woman is an adult human female.

Peter is a good, nerdy friend who values truth and wants his friend to stay healthy while preserving his own - entirely appropriate -boundaries. He went to a lot of trouble to research and write up his conclusions!

Sadly the person to whom the advice is directed appears incapable of accepting it in the spirit it was intended. His own immediate reaction is to reject the message and break the friendship and Reddit commentators are encouraging this. It’s a shame.

Fascinating insight in to people’s lives though.

I actually switched off reading that. Why use one word when fourteen will do.

AI word salad.

Maybe take your own advice. If Youve nothing useful to add to the debate then dont post

@KnottyAuty hello! Just letting you know that you don’t actually get to tell me what to do. I’m not your child, I’m not your employee, I’m not your friend. So it’s lovely if it is that you think you can, you can’t, have a good day!

It’s interesting that this chap has (in part) prompted to write in response to the demands that gender beliefs impose on others. And that it’s a demand rather than a request and that there is a cost to the others in the group, and also a cost to the functioning of the group - I infer that the cognitive burden reduces the quality of their game play. I wonder if that came first or whether Marsha’s issues triggered the thinking on this? Either way this message pretty much covers all the bases and it’s heartening to see it’s from a man when these issues are generally invisible to men from what I can tell. This game circle must have created a particular type of environment. Im glad this chap tried but I fear his game circle has just been torn apart because the person receiving the message will assume it’s “literal violence” rather than someone drawing a healthy boundary.

To be fair.

If the only request was a name change.

Then getting that huge essay as a private message would have shocked anyone.

It was a bit over the top.

Peter should have been more succinct.

Maybe a polite i don't believe me can change into women and cant do what you've asked me to do re gender.

Name change- again I cans ee why it might be difficult if someone has been known as one name and then asking for another- might be difficult. But that should have been ok?

Just a simple note cant do re gender/ pronouns

But it's obvious Ashley wouldnt have been happy with that response either.

Well thought through and well-put. Good that he obviously listened to Marsha, who had clearly had to put up with bad behaviour from this newly-trans-identified male.

good point! It’s quite the essay - although I think Peter knew it was going to go badly. With his full reasoning set out he cant be misquoted or misunderstood. If he’d gone shorter wouldn’t it be more risky with the rest of the friend group?

I think Peter (if real) could have been more succinct, but it's a good thoughtful presentation of the issues.

I'd be fascinated to know more about 'Ashley's' behaviour towards women.

Actually @TheBeaTgoeson1 makes a bloody good point. Too many words dilutes what may or may not be a good message.

Peter wasn't going to win either way with the individual in question.

Agree it’s quite a long message in response to a request to use another name. However, if you manage to make it through the whole text, you might conclude that this man has been imposing costs on the group and on members peripheral to the group who are forced into contact with him for some time. I think this response was trying to make him aware of the experiences and rights of others to which he has apparently been oblivious, rather than just objecting to the name change.

Peter made the mistake of thinking he was speaking to logic and common sense rather than someone who was lost way down the rabbit hole.

I understand him wanting to lay out his reasoning. It was never going to land how he intended though.

'Ashley' didn't make a request for a simple name change. It was name, plus pronouns. Then he commented that he intended to be patient. How magnanimous! One can imagine how that would go. He then threw in that he would help by turning up with a name badge.

Nope. Well done Peter.

Peter clearly cares about his friend. The chunk about the risks of affirmative and medicalisation could have been left out but I doubt Ashley is going to hear it anywhere else.

I think Peter is wasting his time. As I got to the end I mentally heard a door slam and clippy cloppy shoes fading into the difference.

Agree, it’s a solid message. Part of me feels glad that a man is sending this message. Part of me feels a bit sick that it might take messages like this, which emphasise the costs to groups of people that include men, to end this madness. Why wasn’t it enough to just show the costs imposed on women?

This uneasy feeling is supported when I look at what the commenters have to say about Peter - he’s pretentious, pompous, a jackass, nuts. But notably, he’s not ugly, jealous, or needing to be raped or assaulted.

So I’m glad he’s speaking up while also sick that him speaking up is more worthy of respect and less worthy of abuse than when women do.

I don’t think I understood misogyny before this gender ideology crap.

The only people I’ve known called Ashley were lads 😆

So she feels less empowered than she should to state plainly the conversations are inappropriate for stage and nature of the friendship, so it comes off as one sided and demeaning. She is more than just a woman, she is an actual person.

It seems to be a lot more than names and pronouns. Making people, especially the women uncomfortable, seems to be a feature with some of these people. I guess the whole thing takes over their lives like some sort of addiction.

These are apparently men who have known each other for 30 years (so maybe 40-50 years old?) who meet up to play the Magic The Gathering game. The style of Peter’s message fits the profile. As does the late-emerging, “kink community” transery from Peter’s friend.

Peter’s friend is going to listen to people with no connection to him on Reddit instead of a well-meaning guy with 30 year’s of shared history. The cult says “your friends are your enemies”. Hope this guy sees the light before it’s too late.

@FeedbackProvider very true. A friend who is caring enough to lay out the issues as he sees them vs the echo chamber and love bombing of the kink community and Reddit

Clippy cloppy shoes 😆

These comments from Ashley/PhantomSwagger are telling.

'That part was wild. Like, I'm not allowed to dictate how I'm perceived?'

'Well, I had reached out to her because of the accusation I was being inappropriate in some way. After apologizing for any behavior that might have come from misunderstanding her boundaries, she sort of defended him by insisting that she had read what he wrote and that he was writing it because he valued me as a friend.'

The second one is in response to a poster saying that they hope Marsha leaves Peter. The idea that Marsha and Peter are together on this is alien to them (the posters on the Reddit thread). I am sure that one of the big reasons that Peter wrote the long PM is because of how uncomfortable Ashley was making Marsha.

It’s a very uncommon boy’s name in the US. Would be sad for him if he moved to the UK or started watching old episodes of Corrie and realised it’s a lad’s name to lots of people! 😀

So this person thinks they are allowed to dictate how they're perceived and that's where all the trouble starts, no one has the right to dictate to others about how they see them. The other men think this is just a small request, it's only Peter whose taken the time to see how it effects the women in the group and how they're being singled out.
This will either end up with the women getting uncomfortable and leaving or Ashley will do a flounce