WH Radio4 now! Sex matters

[Davros]

My ghast is flabbered. A serious discussion. So far…

Exactly. It's just embarrassing now.

They've managed to admit men into women's spaces all over the damn place.

Right down to men boxing women in the ring and forcing women to share cells with rapists.

Justifying it, oiling the wheels, forcing it on women, shutting down objections.

Is it really beyond their wit now to briefly explain why 'that woman has stubble'.

No you wouldn't, because you are a decent woman and wouldn't take it from a woman who really needs it 💚

When I was last in hospital you were lucky to get enough corridor to lie down on. I was handing out water to a very old man who possibly had dementia or a uti who then wee’d on my foot.

Finally admitted to the single sex bay, I was still handing out water to other women and fending off a women next to us that had dementia and was fixated. The nurses were rushed off their feet but it took me and two others at one point to hold her down. In the end they removed the curtain between us so she could stare all night as that kept her quiet.

It can be safer to be in a bay or ward with lots of others but they need to be single sex.

I have spent a lot of time in hospitals. Nurses need to be able to see and hear everyone for health and safety and do their rounds.

I agree.

And yes the Supreme Court ruling said that there might be occasions to exclude transmen.

To me this is a much more acceptable concept to look at on a case by case basis.

But never should the woman be put in with the men.

It's bloody grim, isn't it.

Fuck this ideology for making it all so much harder.

Well, yes, the issue is male people and the various risks they pose to female people - regardless of their 'identity' or how they look. The negative risk is just not there with trans identified women.

Me too, next time I'm due an op my first question will be, 'what can I identify as that will get me my own room and put me down as it please'. 😁

I feel like trans identifying females on female wards can be treated on a case by case basis. Like if there is an exceptionally masculine looking woman and a woman with dementia, say, who can't understand what is happening and is distressed then that would be managed by the nurses in the same way they would manage any patient conflict. It would hopefully be a rare occurrence.

I have experience with dementia patients. They see sex, not gender. Better than people who still have the capacity to manage cognitive dissonance.

It's a problem where people have 'transitioned' and has been discussed on previous threads. They tend to go back to knowing what sex is and recognising it.

Is it feasible that good lighting, professional makeup, and the fact they're being viewed on a small screen might have some impact?

Without makeup, in daylight, and when not 'acting', they might well look a lot like a 40 year old trans-identifying female.

"Five foot two with a voice like a kazoo" keeps coming into my head. Is that unkind? Perhaps it is.

Since this thread started I've been browsing Reddit FTM and it appears that many don't want to be put on male wards with all those nasty cis men anyway and some have had bad experiences when on male wards. Sadly a lot (too many) seem to be inpatients in psych facilities.

I don’t want this. With the under resourced NHS it is highly likely people who would prefer single sex will be offered mixed sex or nothing at times of peak demand. That is not on. Choice only works when there is excess capacity which is the very opposite of how the NHS functions. Why would we make our public services more expensive to accommodate this tiny minority? There isn’t a magic money tree; we need to optimise the way taxpayers money is spent to get the best outcomes for the greatest number of people. And that means some people won’t get want they want.

No, we can’t leave things to the discretion of the staff as this whole farago has shown that there will always be a few activists who bully the majority.

We need clear, objective, enforceable, transparent rules that everyone follows. That is fairest (& kindest!) to everyone.

It's simple. If the law is applied correctly then everyone is able to be confident that women's wards are single sex. They will therefore know that a masculine appearing person on a women's ward is a woman.

Sex-based spaces need to be inclusive of those who do not adhere to gender norms. That's the true spirit of 'inclusivity'.

Basically there's no argument for 'well this specific tiny minority bizarre situation that we should spend loads of money and staff time on' that the women on here haven't debunked a million times with evidence.

For safety, we need single sex wards in the NHS. No exceptions. No 'case by case'.

Women who've been raped have been basically told to just deal with it by the NHS, so now it's time for a tiny, tiny minority of patients to just deal with what they view as suboptimal conditions very occasionally (as pretty much everyone who's a patient in the NHS does), for everyone's safety, and to not expect everyone else to spend time on their delusions.

We've seen with the case of the woman raped within an hour of being put on a men's ward that whatever a woman thinks about her gender, it doesn't protect her from sex-based violence. So for THEIR safety as well as everyone elses then wards have to be single sex. No exceptions.

You make a very good point about resources/proportionality, Notanorthener - it's not just mixed sex wards/rooms, but even the idea that every public building has to have a mixed sex toilet on the off-chance that one of the 0.05%, or whatever tiny number it is, of the population happens to pop in...
It's going to take along time to unravel the tangled web of genderwoo's demands...

Plus a little note for CompleteGinasaur - I'm just back from the barbers - not quite a flat-top, but I'll think of your dear partner next time I admire my haircut in the mirror

Yes, the rule is wards are segregated on the basis of biological sex. Any disputes about the way an individual looks (because ultimately that's what it is - looks) should be handled in line with however similar disputes are currently. I can't believe that the NHS doesn't have protocols for dealing with a patient who objects to somebody else's presence, it must happen all the time.

Like leans to like! Hairdressers today also, and not quite a buzz cut, but pretty darn close! Haven't had long hair in over 30 years, but I am (apparently) tiny, and wear non-gender-specific clothes. I have only ever had "sorry, love" not "sorry, mate" when bumped into, briefly, split second decision to identify who/what I was. Never once "misgendered". Clocking someone's sex immediately is ingrained in humans, especially for women. If you haven't noticed, then you're not looking.

Are you happy for her to be on a male ward? Where she could be at risk of rape? Despite male representation.

Two of the 3 transmen I have seen recently clearly looked like small females with sprouty beards, and the other looked like a small round female with short hair and masculine clothes.

Perhaps they are are not representative though.