WH Radio4 now! Sex matters

[Davros]

My ghast is flabbered. A serious discussion. So far…

Wes Streeting stated that the Guidance WILL be published/presented in May! Sorry, I’m gabbling as it took me by surprise. I rarely listen to WH but often leave it on as background

The reason this was raised (by Nuala McGovern) was that Wes Streeting was on the programme. However, after speaking reasonably, the example he settled on to show his thinking behind implementing the SC judgment was: but what do we do with a transman when women on the women's ward will read "him" as male?

Streeting doesn't seem to be that keen to implement the judgment as is. He seems to want it watered down to be less "exclusionary".

I thought he came across well and was very sensitive. Yes women should have women’s spaces. 100%. But if someone has transitioned (in either direction) it is unlikely to be appropriate for them to be put in the “ward of birth”. I hope a sensible and appropriate outcome is found. Private room?

Yes except they all think they are special and pass so I don't know where you would draw the line as every NB woman with short hair and every bloke who wears a dress will want special accommodation. As Helen Joyce once said everyone wrapped up in this ideology poses a huge problem in a sane world.

Nuala sounding out of her depth in places, unsurprisingly. I wonder if she actually uses the NHS, or understands that gynaecology applies to biological women only.

Nuala spent too long in the USA methinks. I want her to do well , being Irish but I think she just wants this subject to go away. That isn't going going to happen.

"WH Radio4 now! Sex matters"

Here i was hoping that meant Helen Joyce was on again. 🥺

Yes I heard this and had the same thought. So what is the answer, Wes? Private room but next to the M or F ward, that's the question.

A friend’s daughter has transitioned and now presents as a young man. If they were put into a bed on a female ward I can see the other women being unhappy. Surely you can see that perspective @Thingybob ?

But then the situation becomes that either the NHS gives private medical level accommodation for those asserting certain special identities as@Thingybobsays or there will have to be a triage process to assess how well a person passes as the opposite sex.

I want the NHS to provide neither of these services. I want a return to personal responsibility that would lead to a restoration of trust, ie that when a woman sees someone having a masculine appearance on her ward she'll relax because she trusts that the ward is single sex.

Private rooms should be allocated on medical need. It isn't always the best option to be in a room away from everyone else.

My elderly mother had a neurological disease that, amongst many other horrible symptoms, made it very difficult for her to regulate her body temperature. When she was admitted to hospital for a fall she was given the one and only side room on the ward because it had a functioning aircon system. I would have been furious if it had been occupied by someone who didn't need it.
This wretched ideology has a disproportionate negative effect on the poorest and weakest women in society. Surely you can see that perspective @Johnogroats

It might be impossible to use public services and to keep ones sex hidden.

The idea seems to be that women will be distressed to see a TM on the ward, but cannot be told that they are a women, or trust medical staff not to place men on women's wards.

Do you think women would feel threatened by your friends daughter?

I've never met a trans man that I've found threatening as they have always been slightly built and very effeminate in posture and mannerisms.

If the NHS don't allow males onto female wards then it wouldn't matter what anyone looks like because we could be assured that everyone in that room was female.

It's the deceit that's the problem.

I don’t think women would be unhappy with another woman being in the women’s ward.
However somebody dresses, the length of their hair and their clothing is not the issue.
Despite all efforts to disguise themselves other humans can always tell who is male and who is female in real life.
In which case your scenario would be absolutely fine.

As regards private rooms, these must be allocated on clinical need ie infection, need for a personal toilet etc.
Not because somebody feels uncomfortable with reality.

We can't judge what women will feel threatened by because we haven't lived their lives. That's why some women are fine about sharing changing rooms with men and others aren't.

Trans-identified females should be on female wards. I am sure that they will be happy to accept that any patient who shows distress about this will have it patiently and clearly explained to them that the person who appears to be a man is in fact a woman. As @nauticant says, we need to get back to a time where everyone trusts that the women's wards only have women on them.

The thing about trust is that it's easy to break and hard to rebuild. IF the NHS had obeyed the Supreme Court then it might have been possible. Instead they've wriggled and squirmed and what-about-ed and gaslit and frankly, they don't deserve to be trusted. We know staff have happily lied, so why should we believe them now?

If they were built like a rugby prop forward they'd still be a biological woman.

I think the transman issue can at times be pertinent. Some women do pass esp with a lot of facial hair and if tall and stocky. But there are ways of managing a ward discretely without resorting to handing over side rooms when there is a greater medical need for someone else.

@GallantKumquat I know, I’m sorry about that. I was discombobulated and rushing. I knew it was a poor title

Any woman who has been in this fight will never trust any public institution, union or political party ever again. Even if they stage a tactical withdrawal, the ideologists are going to come at this again from a different angle. We will be watchful to the grave.
Hopefully, those women who are less switched on to what has been happening will have a more restful stay in hospital.

Yes, and most new hospitals are now being built with private, individual rooms.

I think most women would be fine with a trans identified woman on their ward. It is not that many that truly pass as men, anyway.

The issue, is actual men on women's wards.