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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Late night surprise about reputation of FWR

504 replies

IwantToRetire · 10/04/2026 02:19

I was on Site Stuff to report back on ongoing freezing and noticed another thread about whether Mumsnet should apologise about deleting threads about ongoing conflict in the Middle East.

And there were some comments about there being a border line between legitimate criticism of Israel's policies and anti semitism. And it is this last that get these threads deleted.

So was surprised to see some comment on this thread saying it was as bad as some threads on FWR, and those particularly at fault are thos with a GC view point.

(Funnily enough AI suggested a title for this thread along the lines of "Are FWR debates judged differently ..... " but now it has hidden its suggestion, just when I was going to use it.)

Oh its come back

"Are sex and gender debates on FWR judged by different standards?"

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
BettyBooper · 11/04/2026 14:14

MyLuckyHelper · 11/04/2026 14:04

Luckily I don’t live in one of those countries, I live in one where we have freedom of speech. Which is wonderful.

i also haven’t expressed an opinion on self ID. But it’s great you keep thinking of things to hammer me with that I’ve yet to voice 😂

in fact, this is such a bizarre argument. In some countries it’s illegal to be gay, does that mean if I can’t hold the view that being gay is fine becuase it’s illegal elsewhere? What point are you even trying to make here?

Edited

Yes, it is wonderful that you have freedom of speech and sex-based rights.

If that was under threat in this country, would you support those fighting for it, or would you say you didn't care and call those people 'aggressive'?

ItsNotOrwell · 11/04/2026 14:18

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/04/2026 14:06

What many posters actually do is rock up on threads to insult and belittle women on FWR, and then claim that “no other opinions are allowed” or similar nonsense when people defend their beliefs or opinions. DARVO. And most people here are wise to it.

Wait. You think the women here are being insulted and belittled? Ie. you?

ItsNotOrwell · 11/04/2026 14:21

Just when I was beginning to take you seriously

soupycustard · 11/04/2026 14:25

MarieDeGournay · 10/04/2026 12:10

I agree up to a point, akkakk.

If you had written this in 1996 not 2026, and if there were a whole lot of posters saying things about those awful men pretending to be women, you'd have a point.

But the problem - and it is also a problem for those potentially vulnerable transpeople you refer to - is that an entire social/political movement was built around the clearly erroneous idea that humans can change sex.

In a very short space of time, this movement, which has a tiny base in the population - maybe 250,000 out of a population of nearly 70m - has had an incredible and disproportionate influence on just about every aspect of life: the law, medicine, the arts, education, museums, the media, language - even individual speakers' everyday use of language, e.g. 'preferred pronouns'.

Flags, lanyards, days, months, painted trains ... future sociologists will have a field-day working out how a flawed concept, representing a tiny percentage of the population, took hold so forcefully.

One explanation can be found in the 'Denton's Document', which set out a plan of action for extending the reach of the transgender movement into all areas of society. Some of the recommendations are very clearly in use

  • Piggybacking on other causes: Attach trans rights to broader equality, diversity, or anti-discrimination initiatives to normalise them.
  • Strategic framing: Use language that resonates positively (e.g., “equality,” “human rights”) and avoid terms that may provoke opposition
Analysis of the Dentons Document: A How to Manual - Women Speak Tasmania

If the Denton's Document didn't exist and hadn't been safely archived, it would sound like a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory, wouldn't it: that the transgender rights movement was not a grass-roots movement, but a carefully thought-out strategy produced in 2019 by a law firm, and which clearly was put into practice, because we can detect its recommendations in how things have actually panned out.

Another explanation for the disproportionate influence of the transgender movement is that it is basically anti-women, anti-feminist.

I say 'basically' because the most basic assault on a group's rights is to appropriate their very name. If you insist on extending the definition of a group so it can include just about anybody, it removes the identity of that group, and effectively nullifies it. That's what the trans rights movement has done to women's rights.

So future sociologists may observe that the starling success of the trans movement was aided by the fact that it is anti-women, and therefore as useful -as a backlash against feminism as the manosphere is - different, obviously, but also undermining women.

That's what we are arguing against - not individual men who identify as women, the transvestites or transexuals of former years who were so few that they could be viewed neutrally, or sometimes with sympathy or even pity. It's a very successful social movement which has taken hold of key areas of society, and far from representing 'the most marginalised' as it claims, has achieved an incredible and disproportionate amount of visibility and influence.

There is a lot of compassion here towards individuals caught up in the trans juggernaut, especially if they are vulnerable for one reason or another.

Not so much kindness towards a movement which is so inimical to women's rights, and I think that's fair enough.

Just quoting because I think the Denton document really needs a lot of exposure...

BettyBooper · 11/04/2026 14:34

soupycustard · 11/04/2026 14:25

Just quoting because I think the Denton document really needs a lot of exposure...

Agreed.

Unfortunately, for those who haven't looked into any of this beyond surface, it will seem so crazy that it won't be believed.

So much of this is so batshit that if I hadn't, for example, followed the court cases myself, I would struggle to believe it.

Once you do that and then see for yourself the reporting in MSM (in particular BBC) and see the utter misleading reporting and often downright lies in the coverage, the depths of this become clear.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/04/2026 14:36

ItsNotOrwell · 11/04/2026 14:21

Just when I was beginning to take you seriously

The feeling is entirely mutual, and yes I meant what I said. HTH.

Hedgehogforshort · 11/04/2026 14:37

@MyLuckyHelper on the matter of freedom of speech are you aware that there has been numerous cases that have gone to court (and won) around the issue of freedom of speech to say a man cannot become a woman, both male and females in the work place, in public life, on rights to meet in pubs, and venues to discuss these issues. There are also ongoing cases yet to be heard and even more out of Court settlements.

Are you aware that the Free Speech Unions case load is at 40% challenges regarding peoples right to express GC beliefs

Many on here have been victimised and harassed arrested and dragged down the police station whilst exercising the right to speak freely and lawfully about women’s rights.

So small wonder they get testy with you.

soupycustard · 11/04/2026 14:48

ItsNotOrwell · 11/04/2026 04:58

It seems to be here. Let’s see what a formal definition of debate suggests: “to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments” (Merriam-Webster). I don’t really see a good deal of that.

This is very unfair. Whatever one can say about 'tone' (and actually I can see how non-regulars might find some posts a touch abrasive - partly because of the infuriating expectation that women, unlike men, must always be nice), there are a lot of very knowledgeable, clearly very bright posters who take the time to post a LOT of intellectual argument.

The problem, in terms of a 'debate', is that there is never a single point made by the 'opposing team', be they TRAs or 'be-kinders' or 'but it's complicated's' that has any logical or scientific basis.

Wearenotborg · 11/04/2026 14:51

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RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 11/04/2026 14:58

MyLuckyHelper · 11/04/2026 13:15

As I said to someone else, quoting me one
example of someone being aggressive on one side, doesn’t mean no one’s been aggressive on the other. Nor does it negate my personal experience when expressing my views.

I imagine becuase a TRA might be less threatened by view of “live and let live”, than a GC person. But that is still my experience, however many memes you link.

That's not a meme, it's been produced by Bash Back to encourage people to join them in threatening or violent behaviour towards (mostly) women who re standing up for their rights, safety and dignity.

Pingponghavoc · 11/04/2026 15:08

It's very easy to forget that this is a feminist chat board called 'sex and gender discussions'.

Yet people are upset that it is feminist, prioritising women. And that it doesn't follow a dictionary definition of a debate.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/04/2026 15:10

MyLuckyHelper · 11/04/2026 11:07

Of course it’s a statement of that. When it’s directed at me, I take it as someone hoping my child comes to harm so that their point is proven. which isn’t particularly warm and fuzzy.

"Let's hope it's not your child" is in fact the opposite of that, and is also making the point that it will be someone's child and calls on you to have some empathy for that child and family.

BettyBooper · 11/04/2026 15:16

What I just don't understand is the posters who come on here and say that 'yes, yes of course I know people can't change sex but, but you are so intolerant!' Also don't seem to understand that women have been sacked, doxxed cancelled and received death threats for expressing that very same view.

In this country.

They think this board is 'intolerant' of their views, where their views are allowed to stand and be debated, while at the same time not appreciating how close we have been (and continue to be) to them not being able to express those views in society at large.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you...

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/04/2026 15:16

ItsNotOrwell · 11/04/2026 13:37

Are you suggesting other women lack basic comprehension? That they find it difficult to make up their own minds?

That isn’t what is happening here. “Cognitive dissonance” isn’t the problem. You said it yourself - other opinions aren’t allowed, and that’s it. Look at the threads with the most responses (apart from the tribunal ones). What do they have in common? Generally, they’re a thread where someone is being attacked by a group of posters. Whatever useful information there might have been is lost in drama.

they’re a thread where someone is being attacked by a group of posters

Disagreement from more than one person is “being attacked"?

Since when have we been required to only have one poster express an disagreeing opinion at a time? How is that meant to work? An FWR rota or something?

BettyBooper · 11/04/2026 15:24

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/04/2026 15:16

they’re a thread where someone is being attacked by a group of posters

Disagreement from more than one person is “being attacked"?

Since when have we been required to only have one poster express an disagreeing opinion at a time? How is that meant to work? An FWR rota or something?

Well exactly.

If someone comes on here with an opposing view that the majority of others don't agree with (and that usually has been discussed at length and debunked upteen times before), what do they expect to happen?

It's not that opposing views 'aren't allowed '. It's that they don't have any decent arguments. That's hardly everyone who can robustly dismiss their arguments fault, is it?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/04/2026 15:25

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 11/04/2026 15:16

they’re a thread where someone is being attacked by a group of posters

Disagreement from more than one person is “being attacked"?

Since when have we been required to only have one poster express an disagreeing opinion at a time? How is that meant to work? An FWR rota or something?

I found “you said it yourself, other opinions aren’t allowed” quite a disingenuous way to frame it. No she didn’t “say” it, she was pointing out that it is bollocks. It’s self-evidently true that other opinions are “allowed” to be voiced on this board, but no one is actually required to agree with them or let them go unchallenged, and some people can’t seem to see the difference.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/04/2026 15:26

BettyBooper · 11/04/2026 15:24

Well exactly.

If someone comes on here with an opposing view that the majority of others don't agree with (and that usually has been discussed at length and debunked upteen times before), what do they expect to happen?

It's not that opposing views 'aren't allowed '. It's that they don't have any decent arguments. That's hardly everyone who can robustly dismiss their arguments fault, is it?

Quite.

Catiette · 11/04/2026 15:40

Wearenotborg · 11/04/2026 11:58

That’s what was bugging me. It was almost exactly the same arguments and phrasing. Thought I’d lost my mind for a moment.

Welcome to a large part of the process that peaked me - listening to some of the most ardent defenders of the ideology, increasingly astonished by what I was hearing.

Edited to add...

Helper, that's an appalling thing to have been said about your daughter, and I'm sorry it was. Anathema, even as a rhetorical device. However, I hope you'll also hear posters' suggestions that this has coloured your views somewhat (understandably) on the "both sides" trope.

I think it's very hard in such an emotive debate to distinguish between what is and isn't objectively offensive (not least as offence isn't objective - and that's been further complicated by the recent worrying definitions of eg. non-crime hate as being wholly "in the eye of the beholder" and similar).

My own most recent experience of this (harping on a bit now for posters following the relevant threads!) has been being accused of AI use - ugh! It briefly hit me harder than accusations of bigotry for standing up for sex-based rights! I've been wondering why, and think it's 1) familiarity with the latter as a common and meaningless trope used to attack so-called TERFs - whereas the AI comment was new, and 2) it touched a nerve, because I know using and analysing language is my "thing" and a personal strength. I think this is perhaps applicable to your response to your experience: of course you'd be distressed by the use of your daughter in this way, but also, you'd be especially shocked by it, because it's out of the ordinary. In the same way, but in reverse, accusations of Naziism are water of a duck's back to many here (helped along by being so cartoonishly ridiculous, of course).

It's always been a source of some frustration to me at work that colleagues who take the piss in a thousand ways weekly are far, far more likely to get off with some major transgression than I'd be if I were to let my professional facade briefly slip to show, for example, even a second's irritation at said colleagues!

These double-standards are especially gendered, and very hard to see when they're pretty much the air we breathe.

Many posters here would argue that we've an obligation to deconstruct these gendered expectations by refusing to live - and speak and write - them. By being direct. I've got a lot of sympathy with this view, not least as I'm often honestly not sure how much of my own attempts to be a bit more gentle than some are intentional strategy, as I'd like to think, or a certain capitulation to said standards.

Hedgehogforshort · 11/04/2026 15:54

You lot of bloody argumentative peeps peaked me about five years ago i got a rough ride, i suppose, but actually i looked in to all the information i was provided with.

I had been a dormant feminist active in the women’s services sector.

I quite enjoyed the experience of listening to a lot of strong well informed and educated women “giving it what for”

I was Karensalright back then.

I think some people find it much harder to remove the fog from their eyes, and realise the fools they are, hence the arguing about arguing behaviour.

I am glad of you all sticking to your guns and accepting me eventually and for forgiving my naivety.

So carry on fighting the good fight. Xxxxxx

MyAmpleSheep · 11/04/2026 16:09

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Hey everyone! Finally! I finally found an insult in this thread!

Somebody said to someone else "I think you're stupid". I can't be bothered to work out who said it to whom, but surely now we can all agree both sides are as bad as each other.

Hedgehogforshort · 11/04/2026 16:14

MyAmpleSheep · 11/04/2026 16:09

Hey everyone! Finally! I finally found an insult in this thread!

Somebody said to someone else "I think you're stupid". I can't be bothered to work out who said it to whom, but surely now we can all agree both sides are as bad as each other.

My goodness what a wretched person that did it, we must cast them out immediately, and report all of ourselves for decontamination, and apply to attend a refresher course on politeness.

MyAmpleSheep · 11/04/2026 16:15

Hedgehogforshort · 11/04/2026 16:14

My goodness what a wretched person that did it, we must cast them out immediately, and report all of ourselves for decontamination, and apply to attend a refresher course on politeness.

I agree. I had to go and have a little lie down when I read it.

Hedgehogforshort · 11/04/2026 16:18

MyAmpleSheep · 11/04/2026 16:15

I agree. I had to go and have a little lie down when I read it.

😂😂😂

Catiette · 11/04/2026 16:34

MyLuckyHelper · 11/04/2026 13:15

As I said to someone else, quoting me one
example of someone being aggressive on one side, doesn’t mean no one’s been aggressive on the other. Nor does it negate my personal experience when expressing my views.

I imagine becuase a TRA might be less threatened by view of “live and let live”, than a GC person. But that is still my experience, however many memes you link.

This also made me think of the applicability of the old Atwood(?) quote to this debate: "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them, while women are afraid men will kill them" or whatever is is. I think it rather neatly extrapolates to discussions of "violent language" and offence, and the associated double standards we see.

If there's some truth it it - and I think we all agree there is, then...

To us, Bash Back's poster and TERF Is A Slur stand out as self-evidently worse. (Well, duh!) But to some visitors, blissfully immune to that kind of fear/wariness whether because of their sex or their safe allegiance to The Cause, a GC poster's verbal attack on their identity (whether as a challenge to what "trans" actually means, or questioning the absurdity of their dedication to the ideology) genuinely could feel more immediately threatening.

This isn't to say the two are remotely equal, of course - rather the opposite.

It shows how utterly gendered conceptions of "violence" in this debate are, and what an unforgiveable number the ideology has done on women. Incredibly, it's succeeded in legitimising that first half of what was intended by Atwood to be a genuinely damning comment on power relations: the sarky words she's rolling her eyes at have somehow become "literal violence", and readers' - especially TW's - "fear" at them, something to be mitigated at all costs.

I mean, I know this crazy disparity was the point of the quote all along, but my goodness, has it become more concrete in this particular context.

Catiette · 11/04/2026 16:46

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/04/2026 13:54

As I have said, the belittling comments from this type of poster bely the “reasonable discourse” they claim they want. Every. Single. Time.

Sadly, yes. It's almost funny, really. A few posts above this one, there's a ref. to a right not to be "invalidated" or similar, prompty followed by emphatic agreement in the (I personally find, rather invalidating phrase, "They do this all the time"). There are so many other examples just in this thread.

It makes the point very neatly that where there's always going to be angry conflict on both sides, the key issue can only be of degree.

And as far as this goes, the initial tellingly generous assumption that the BB poster was a meme, rapidly followed by the dismissal of it as any kind of evidence at all in any case, really does show the double-standards at play.