My complaint to the passport office and the response I received…

[PassportProblemo]

So, I recently applied for a new UK passport. During the application process, I was asked for my “gender” and given the options “male” and “female”. At no point was I asked my sex. Assuming there was an error, I submitted the following complaint to the passport office:

"Hello,

I recently applied for a new passport as mine is nearing expiry.

As part of the application, I was asked to provide my "gender". The options offered were "female" and "male". As "male" and "female" refer to one's sex, I do not believe that this section is correct in asking for the applicant's gender.

Therefore, may I ask why you are using the term "gender" rather than "sex"? Also, do you plan on ever correcting this to avoid confusion to your customers?

Kind regards,"

During the complaints process, it asked if I would like my response via phone or writing. I requested writing.

Two days later, I received a phone call from the Passport Office… The woman said that the office is just following their internal guidance here, which says that this is what they should do. I asked for her response in writing. She sent me the following email:

“Dear PassportProblemo,

Thank you for your enquiry.

The passport application process is structured in accordance with The Gender Recognition Act 2004 which came into effect on 4 April 2005.

For more information on The Gender Recognition Act 2004 and how it applies to the passport application process please see the below link:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/contents

Yours sincerely,”

(I have removed the satisfaction survey link they included in their email)

Right, so what do we do next? How do we challenge their holy “internal guidance”?!?

It's a key identity document, the field is called "sex", and a person's sex is one of the most obvious and immediate things we notice about them and a key distinguishing factor, ruling out 50% of the population. It's a very useful data element, AS LONG AS it's accurate.

Also please don't use the c*s word here, it's considered offensive by many users and against Ts&C's.

No it highlights the pointlessness of “gender”. What if the holder doesn’t identify as either and is androgynous?

It’s supposed to be an official factual document rather than validation of a persona.

The document doesn’t really matter these days. All the factual info that matters is in the chip. That’s why we are headed towards digital passports.

Apologies, given the Ts&Cs around terms that trans people find offensive seem to be entirely ignored these days, I assumed it was fair game to use whatever terminology you choose - surely it's "compelled speech" otherwise? It's more awkward to use phrases like "non-trans woman" when a perfectly widely acceptable word like "cis" exists (which just means not trans, there is absolutely nothing offensive about it in meaning or intent). But I'll try to be mindful in future.

As for the rest, no it isn't true at all that people's birth sex is always visually obvious, whether they are trans or not, this is just a myth that gets repeated and repeated because it's necessary for the GC ideology to pretend trans people are always identifiable and non-trans people will never be mistaken for trans.

Is there any guidance on how to determine what your gender is? Any definitions etc? As it's clearly not "sex" they are asking for. What if your gender changes day to day?

Well, many countries now offer an X option and there are campaigns for the UK to do likewise for precisely this reason. I would support this and/or the option to remove the field entirely. Either of these would solve OP's problem, they wouldn't then be required to declare a "gender" at all.

It's more awkward to use phrases like "non-trans woman" when a perfectly widely acceptable word like "cis" exists

The only women who are both women and "trans" are the women who prefer to identify as men.

What some people refer to as "trans women" or "non-cis women" aren't any kind of woman at all, they're male, men, and for the purposes of most threads in this area should be clearly recognized and described as such.

It's inappropriate and inaccurate to divide women in to "cis" and "trans", or "trans" and "non-trans" in the fashion that some outlets do. Trans-identifying men are not a subset of women any more than apples are a subset of citrus fruit.

It's more awkward to use phrases like "non-trans woman" when a perfectly widely acceptable word like "cis" exists (which just means not trans, there is absolutely nothing offensive about it in meaning or intent).

I mean this genuinely and I'm asking you because you seem confident you know what you're talking about!

Trans means "having a gender identity that doesn't sit comfortably with your sex".

If I don't have a gender identity, does that mean I'm not trans?

But that would mean I'm "cis", and some people say that means that you do have a gender identity that does match your sex. As you can see, there's a subtle difference here.

If you don't know whether you have a gender identity, how can you know if you're trans or not? In some places "agender" used to be specifically listed as a type of trans identity - now that seems to have changed and/or it's inconsistent between different sources.

I don't agree and I don't think it's reasonable for you to try to compel my speech in this way. You use your preferred terminology and I'll use mine.

it's necessary for the GC ideology to pretend trans people are always identifiable

I dont think that's a logical consequence of being GC at all. Many of us agree that being trans is an inner identity based on gender identity, which is precisely the issue!

It's only identifiable if those trans people believe so strongly that, e.g., there is something female about a woman that they change their appearance to try and be seen as the opposite sex, in the belief that sex and gender are somewhat the same.

It's not really anyone else's business or concern if you feel you have a gender identity or not. Cis means not trans. If you don't feel any incongruence between the sex you are perceived as and how you perceive yourself, then you are not trans, ergo you are cis. If you prefer not to use that term to refer to yourself, I try to be respectful of this, but it is a widely used and recognised term that simply means the opposite of trans, and honestly it's hard for me to see why it's offensive except - as a commenter above illustrated - some people see it as a term which recognises that trans identities are also valid and they want to control other people's language to make this not possible to easily acknowledge.

If you don't feel any incongruence between the sex you are perceived as and how you perceive yourself

Can you explain what you mean by this? I perceive myself using my senses, so I can see which sex I am by looking at my body (assuming I'm not hallucinating).

So you're saying if others can accurately recognise which sex I am, I'm not trans?

It's not really anyone else's business or concern if you feel you have a gender identity or not.

I'm not talking about anyone else - sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm talking about knowing for myself whether the definition of trans applies to me, as it seems to assume a gender identity of some kind.

As far as I know, I don't have one, so I can't tell if "having a gender identity that aligns with your sex" does, or doesn't, apply to me.

My point wasn't anything to do with "inner identity", it was about how trans people - and some non-trans people - are perceived by others when they are out in public. The fact is, many trans people pass absolutely as their reassigned gender, and that many non-trans people can be mistaken for the opposite sex. It is this that I'm arguing the GC ideology has built a mythology around - the "you can always tell" myth - because acknowledging that you can't always tell means acknowledging how materially difficult some of the policies the GC movement has pushed for makes people's lives - ie leaving trans people in a position where there is no toilet they can use without potentially meeting a hostile reaction, and leaving many non-trans people facing that same hostility in places they have every right to be because their bodies or their presentation doesn't fit whatever gender standards.

This thread is a case in point - it is extremely obvious that if you look like a woman but your passport says "M" you might face some difficulties or even prejudice navigating international travel, and this is the reason most developed countries allow trans people to change their gender on their passports. OP and others in the thread have to pretend this can "never happen" to prop up their ideological belief that this isn't being done for a good reason.

I've actually just liked at Stonewall's glossary, and they disagree with you about "cis".
It says cis is someone whose gender is the same as the sex they were assigned at birth.

So that requires someone to have a gender identity.

I am still confused about where people without a gender identity sit.

Stonewall's glossary wasn't created by god on the 7th day. The common usage of cis means someone who isn't trans. Do you think that you're trans?

It’s important to say nobody is compelling or trying to compel your speech; you’ll notice your post is unremoved and you may continue to post here in whatever language you wish.

I will continue to point out your errors, and it’s helpful of you to continue to give me the opportunities to do so.

#nonodebate

One of the reasons that 'cis' is offensive is that it has the effect of making women a subset of their own sex, which isn't great when we are already in a patriarchy.
We already have a word for women, which is 'women'. Males who identify as women are not 'women'. And they have coined their own term for themselves: 'transwomen'. Push comes to shove, I really wish that that wasnt the term they had coined, but it is, and it at least makes clear that there are 'women' and 'transwomen' and that they are not the same thing.

I'm trying to demonstrate that there are contradictory understanding of what "cis" means - not claim that either is correct.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I'm female.
I don't believe I have a gender identity (perhaps I do - I've just never been given a clear explanation of how to identify this)

Do those things match, ie I'm cis, or do they not match, ie I'm trans?

You absolutely have tried to compel my speech, you've given me a long lecture on why you think my language use was wrong and another user has outright told me not to use a certain word. I'm absolutely certain I'd not receive the same courtesy if I lectured you for paragraphs on what language I thought you should use or asked people not to use terms like "TIF" and "TIM" which I consider offensive.

You'd think nit, yet some people can make it so.

Except the poster in question had already been scolded for using the term ‘cis’.
Someone was certainly trying to compel her (apols, presume she was a woman due to Mumsnet posters’ demographic being mostly female) speech.
As for myself, I will ‘cis’ away when it seems appropriate, to me, anyway.
I wish it wasn’t necessary but there you go.

The passport office said that a passport isn't proof of sex, that why they have always allowed cross dressing men to change the marker to female.

Any cross dresser can change the marker on their passport without doctors letters or a GRC. The only reason some 'trans' people tend not to use this method is that it could make it difficult to get a diagnosis of gender later on.

In itself, it doesn't matter. But a passport is a strong form of id, and many people use it to prove age, name, nationality. Lots of people dont realise its very easy for men to get the female marker, and it should never be used by itself of proof of sex.

So could, for example, a terrorist or criminal, simply change their sex marker when renewing their passport and potentially fly under the radar with a new identity?

I'm not sure why you're pushing me to give you a definitive answer as to whether you are trans or not, and I suspect you're trying to set me up for some kind of gotcha. I don't know if you're trans or not - I can't see inside your head and tell you how you feel inside about your birth sex. Do you think that you're trans?

Perhaps it would help to understand that when people talk about "gender identity" in this context, it isn't about your social behaviour or presentation, it's about your perceived sense of your own sex. For the vast majority of people, this matches their physical body. I can see how in this case this can create the impression they don't have a gender identity - "of course I don't identify as a woman, I just am one" - but if you can make the statement that you are a woman and feel that this is true, then that's pretty much all that "gender identity" means here. If you find the term "gender identity" uncomfortable, then think of it as a perception of your own sex vs how others perceive that sex. For most people, those match; for a few, there's a mismatch, and we call that minority of people trans people. Trans is a Latin word and its opposite in Latin is cis, so if you need a way to easily refer to a group of people who aren't trans, "cis" is a useful adjective, and avoids clunky constructions like talking about "non-trans women". It really isn't more complicated than that, and - perhaps it is uncharitable of me - but it does seem like often in these conversations, the GC side has to pretend these definitions are more difficult or obscure than they actually are, because they just don't want it to make sense.

The form is obviously wrong. There are two sexes male and female, and that tallies nicely with the available options when applying for a passport. But we are reliably informed that there are over a hundred genders, so the passport office clearly can't be asking about those here.