Why do activists always say "sex and gender are different" in biology-based discussions? (and any other questions MNers have have about pro-trans talking points)

[singthing]

This really is a genuine question:

In any discussion where biological sex is the key factor in something*, someone always pops up with the "tell me you don't understand the difference between sex and gender" line.

I simply don't understand why this is always dropped in. Is it just someone picking from the list of approved activist comments, or is there actually some point I am missing? It never seems to actually add anything to the context of biological ability. It doesn't even function as a thought-terminating cliche....

(*It repeatedly came up in on social media this week about the IOC decision.)

It's a clear exercise at equivocation and allows them to switch between a number of definitions without clearly defining which one they are using, in order to confuse and control discussion.

It is a feature of their argument (to them), not a bug.

Personally, I think there is utility in retaining a sex/ gender distinction so that we can separate and criticise the biological from the social, but we shouldn't use woman/ man for both but perhaps masculine/ feminine for gender. But I also acknowledge that there hasn't been a distinction for long - half a century in academia, two decades in public consciousness - so it's not something I mind losing.

Sex and gender are different.

Sex is real, everyone has one, it cannot be changed.

Gender is an imaginary identity, some people have one; like all fantasies it is changeable.

Gender (an optional fantasy) should never trump sex (a universal reality).

They will tell you that sex and gender are different and in the same breath claim that gender is a proxy for sex in law.
"Sex and gender are DIFFERENT but also my gender on my passport should reflect my special identity"

Sex and gender are different but it's vital that children are medicated so they can resemble the opposite sex. Well, the boys might but the girls will just be even smaller and less likely to pass as men but they are just girls so...

Sex is biological. Gender is invented.

I have no difficulty with the word 'sex' meaning biological sex and 'gender' meaning the socially-constructed roles etc that are imposed on the basis of sex.

The World Health Organisation's definition is
Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.
which is OK I think.

Unlike many posters, I believe I have a gender identity, it is strongly gender non-conforming and is a very distinctive element of who I am.

The WHO definition goes on to make 'gender identity' distinct form both gender and sex:
Gender and sex are related to but different from gender identity. Gender identity refers to a person’s deeply felt, internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond to the person’s physiology or designated sex at birth.
and it starts to get a bit waffly at that point.

I don't dismiss the concept of gender, or gender identity; I think they are valid and useful concepts. But they lack the observable reality of biological sex, which has not varie[d] from society to society and can change over time as gender has.

So in my opinion, gender exists and is a valid area of study, and may be a real and important part of a person's self-image. E.g. me🙂

But that's different from sex, which is binary and immutable. People can express their gender in any way they like, conforming to gender stereotypes or rejecting them completely, or anything in between.
But their sex is either male or female, full stop.

That's what the IOC ruling has re-affirmed: in sex-segregated sports, gender/gender identity, as defined by the WHO, etc., is irrelevant, it is biological sex that matters.

Because sex also means intercourse (sex) people often use the word gender when they mean sex. Some people feel weird about saying Sex and I’m assuming that’s why it says ‘gender’ on official documents like passports where what is meant is sex. Language issue.

It’s a ridiculous argument and it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. How can someone claim that a gender identity is separate from biological sex, then turn around and demand that said gender identity entitles someone to access the spaces and sports of the opposite sex? If sex and gender are not the same thing, then the classic ‘Just use the men’s room, Richard’ meme is exactly on point.

Exactly. Gender dysphoria is under mental health issues because you can't see it. So's autism. You can't measure it empirically or truly know how it affects people, which is why people seem unable to say 'I know I'm a woman because of x, y and z, even though I am in a man's body. Come to that, how on earth do you define a woman without using biological gender. Obviously, I am a perfect example of one, but I'm willing to bet that so is everyone else here and none of us are alike. I'm not even consistent from day to day and I don't think men are either. I wonder if gender is a strong desire to be something else because you don't like what you are? Like the stage a lot of us go through when we think we have to have been swapped at birth because we have nothing in common with our parents? Then, ten years or so later, or when we have our own children, we hear ourselves and think 'help, I sound just like my mum!'

Treading very carefully here and truly not trying to cause offence, but can you explain the difference between gender and personality in this case? You're a tough lady and a good role model of the sort we need if we can get away from defining behaviours as masculine and feminine. You are a brilliant MarieDeGournay, and that to me is all that matters. I've had to discuss this with my two autistic young adults because stereotyping intrigues them. We decided that it was a control mechanism and anyone who uses it needs to be treated politely but not taken seriously. Hence the 'you are a brilliant whoever you are' being all that matters, along with your brain wirings different and there isn't a standard one. There are just a lot of people who feel a desire to fit in.

I mostly agree with the WHO definitions between sex and gender.

It's the 'sex is why they oppress you (because you are smaller/weaker and make babies which we want to control) and gender is how they oppress you (gender are the rules we have made up that force you to accept your role as baby maker/carer/ person who does what we say)

As to gender identity, I suppose you could say it's a measure of how far you conform to your society's rules - @MarieDeGournay clearly does not conform to the stereotypes, neither do I - but some people will feel happier in accepting those stereotypes.

I suppose it's one part of personality - adherence to gender stereotypes, but not all - there's also extro/introversion, agreeability/neuroticism etc.

This.

Sex is which gametes you are set up to produce.

Gender is how you interact with stereotypes of gendered behaviour.

Your 'gender' is largely irrelevant to other people.

But the TRAs love to use these terms interchangeably, like a kind of bait and switch. They'll talk about gender identity and changing gender (whatever that means) and suddenly conclude that this means men should get access to women's single sex spaces

Just to be clear I don't think that gender identity - however you define it matters in day to day life.

It's a I prefer my hair short, I don't want to have children, I'm ambitious, aggressive - and unapologetic about these aspects of me. For a boy/man it might be I hate sport, I love bright clothes, long hair, enjoy nurturing and really want to be main carer for my own children (or others).

None of that means you invade sex segregated spaces or categories.

I do accept that these choices can make you open to insult/challenge - in some countries will put you in physical danger, but so can many choices.

Neither your (non)adherence to gender stereotypes or the extent to which you have altered your body cosmetically change the reality of your sex.

Marie, I'm really interested in what having a gender identity means to you. I very much respect your views, and if you'd like to share more I'd love to hear it.

Do you specify it when forms ask about gender identity (in addition to sex)?

I would always tend to say that I haven't got a gender identity, but maybe it means something different to me.

TRA have used a variety of theories to justify transgenderism allowing allies to pick whichever one they can understand.

The sex is different to gender is more feasible than most, but it does rely on stereotypes and on the idea that spaces and opportunities are best organised around gender, not sex.

Exactly. Sex & Gender are not the same thing. It’s people thinking they are that has got us into this ‘self ID’ mess

They can say this because to them biological sex is an inconvenient irrelevance, nebulous and poorly defined, and gender identity is the inner reality that matters.
It’s a belief system and of course makes no sense at all to anyone grounded in reality.

I too, like Marie think that there is, for some or even many people, a psychological sense or awareness of the feminine or masculine that is an integral part of personality and might be a candidate for gender identity. But I know it’s not a popular take on here. I have an acute awareness of being female, but have always felt my thinking and interests are more typically masculine - have always been gender non-conforming (as it is called now, but it never gave anyone pause for thought when I was growing up in the 1950s/60s; I was just a tomboy).

I think @DeanElderberry nails it. I heard it said a few times that gender identity is very complicated as if it’s something mere mortals like me can’t grasp but I haven’t heard this line trotted out for a couple of years now.

I wonder if it was because the people saying it were pressed further and realised they actually couldn’t define this very complicated gender identity?

Gender was used by prudes as a euphemism for sex

It then became a religion

Thanks - to be clear I know WHAT the difference is between bodily reality and special feelings. That's not my question.

I am not clear WHY they bring up this line - it doesn't add anything to the argument, and it doesn't answer a question. I don't know why it is said in the context of discussions about sex-based ability, such as in sports.

Maybe @Ingenieur has the closest answer - it is just to obfuscate (and I am on a hiding to nothing trying to apply logic and sense!)

it’s hacking me off epically that apparently sex is actually not a binary (and that’s not even getting into the whataboutery of intersex (never DSDs) )
Im not sure clownfish or hyenas are particularly good examples of human biology but it seems they carry a lot of weight
also the SRY thingummy seems to be doing a lot of obfuscation and apparently is some kind of trump card?

Think your last comment nails it
There's no intellectual, scientific or factual substance to trans ideology. The language is ever changing, the meanings shift in line with the wind and every time the incoherence is pointed out, a different meaning or argument is tried.

The desperation is even more intense now after the clarity of the SC judgment, organisations for women and girls finally remembering who their target audience really is and the power of threats, abuse and cancelling is starting to ease.

Confusion, incoherence and being economical with the truth is all that's left.

Thank you, Easytoconfuse, and there's not even a hint of offence perceived in what you said

I rejected very firmly right from the beginning were the stereotypes of what I should look like, play with, wear, aspire to, desire, etc etc.,as a girl. Dolls, dresses, boys.. no thanks.
I became a gender-non-conforming lesbian, short hair, sharp suits😎

That's my 'gender' expression.
I also have a personality, which ironically is more gender-stereotyped than my appearance - I never shook off the 'be nice, well-behaved and helpful little girl' message Mostly I don't mind - who wants to be not-nice and un-helpful?😏

I could still look like this and have a completely different personality.
Does that answer your question?

I hope you and your dear young adults navigate your way through the choppy waters of stereotyping, it sounds like you are doing a grand piloting job so far

I've just read your post too StellaAndCrow, thank you.

In answer to your question:
If a form only used the word 'gender' and not sex, I'd put 'female', because it was likely to be using the word 'gender' when it really meant 'sex'.

I've never been asked my 'gender identity' on a form but if I was, I'd just ignore it - as TheKeatingFive said, 'Gender is how you interact with stereotypes of gendered behaviour. Your 'gender' is largely irrelevant to other people.'

So unless it was a form relating to research into something like lesbian identities, my 'gender identity' isn't something I would expect official forms to ask about, and I'd ignore it.

'Gender' is important to me, but 'largely irrelevant' in the grand scheme of things, whereas being biologically female is very relevant.