Woman dies by euthanasia after becoming paraplegic trying to commit suicide after gang rape

[AComplicatedWoman]

This is one of the most heartbreaking news stories I have come across.

Noelia Castillo had a difficult childhood and spent much of it in care homes. She was sexually assaulted by her ex-boyfriend of four years after she had taken sleeping pills to help her sleep, and was assaulted on another occasion by several men in a nightclub. She attempted suicide in October 2022, and it left her unable to use her legs and in a wheelchair. Noelia conducted a long legal battle with her father for the right to end her life and she died by euthanasia on Thursday.

RIP Noelia. I am so sorry that your life was destroyed by these abhorrent abusive men.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/noelia-castillo-euthanasia-law-spain-b2946671.html

That's chilling - it's utter madness to say a 12-year-old could be anywhere near capable of assessing what's best for them when it comes to life and death.

From 12 to 15 they require parental consent. From 16 they dont.

Nrtft apologies if I'm repeating something another poster has put forward. If assisted suicide wasn't a thing, if parts of the world hadn't passed these laws and normalised it, lots of the people who have been killed by the state would have just got on with living. They'd have made the best of it, they'd have coped because that was their only option. In many cases, I suspect, killing themselves would never have occurred to them. They would have lived their lives and some may actually have been happy. A minority will have been miserable, some will have taken their own lives anyway. The tiny number, the ones whose situation started the ball rolling, dying hopelessly, in pain and indignity, perhaps their countries, without this distraction, may have devised something else to help them.

This is a might have been. There's no way to put the state killing you genie back in the bottle. Perhaps expecting people to, with help, make the best of their situation is hopelessly naive. In some cases I suspect it also would seem quite callous.

I believe Noelia's organs were harvested for transplant, almost certainly with her agreement. While I hope the thought of this made her happy it's something else that worries me. Partly because it's coercive, 'by dying I can help others live'. What hopeless person wouldn't find that attractive? Partly because it likely influenced the choice of chemicals that were used to kill her. Ones that wouldn't damage the bits of her that were to be transplanted. It probably made no difference, but i worry that her best interests were compromised.

I had no idea about how young you can be to request this

Parental consent does not give me any reassurance at all. There are some screwey parents out there who do not make the best choices for their kids but couch it in terms of stuff being in their child's best interests

Different if the child literally has a terminal illness which means almost categorically they're going to die a really painful death from very soon. That is one scenario where it may be appropriate. But people suffering from depression and anxiety and PD. The very fact that someone is PD makes them less likely to be really acting with full awareness of the reality of the situation, even if they are deemed to have capacity. Particularly issues around narcissism or EUPD

I can imagine something like this being common for people who are ND with very fixed views about how something should or shouldnt be and if they decide that the only way they can proceed is to die then they wont be dissuaded of it

I'm a supporter of euthanasia and assisted dying. Even for teenagers. I disagree with the comments on here that the Spanish state killed Noelia Castillo. That's not what happened. Noelia made the decision herself. And she was of sound mind to do so. Her father intervening is a further abuse of her. It reminds me of how in Ireland the ultra Catholics 'got to' the parents of suicidal Ms. X - abortion case.

The Dutch are a very pragmatic people. Children who have cancers and other terminal illnesses are wise beyond their years. Those who request euthanasia are generally in unbearable pain, their loving parents supporting their child in that decision. Nobody comes to this easily. It's an extremely difficult decision for the doctors and parents. It is not done lightly. The British and Irish media (both countries are debating the issue) always highlight particularly lurid cases. What they don't highlight is the compassion involved in this.

I'm very sorry that Noelia Castillo felt she had no better choice, but I'm glad that she had that choice. She was brave in that choice and Spain was brave to let her have that choice. Hopefully she has found the peace she sought that she could not get in this life.

I mean forced to carry on living.

Because that's exactly what's happening.

Dying in those circumstances also means that someone else has to accede, and take action on, a request to kill them. But if they do not, then in this case an utterly dependent woman, who they also have take action for in order that she carries on living because without their actions, she will die anyway carries on loathing her life and wishing she was dead anyway. So she is indeed being forced to carry on living, as are others who live with extreme and incurable pain or extreme distress.

I'm very glad that the deeply unrealistic "but you can always get better and there are painkillers!" naive or religiously extreme people are slowly being outweighed by the people who have had experience of their family members actually living with this pain. The Christian culture of life-at-all-costs has an enormous amount of suffering to answer for.

I'll tell you for a fact that in the Netherlands, there is a culture of expecting people to state their points of view and for that to be respected, which leads to a (considerably) happier and also more productive culture. I don't agree with a 12 year old being able to take euthanasia no. But to blanket ban euthanasia when responsibly handled is very cruel.

The people I've known, three of them, who have gone for assisted dying, did so in full conscious control of themselves and died with dignity. A friend also dated someone on one of the euthanasia teams and they act with pragmatic, and low key, respect, making dying easier and far more dignified.

Don't dismiss a reasoned and balanced and dignified ability to access the ability to die with dignity. Some places go too far in both directions - either making euthanasia too easy, or forcing people to live when their deepest wish is to die. But the extremes in both directions are just that.

@Cailin66 could not agree more and actually, in those circumstances, assisted dying for a child with terminal cancer who can not be helped with pain killers does make sense.

I agree its very disturbing, Utilitarianism gone mad. I support the concept of assisted dying in principle but bringing it in to a country where you haven't even got the basics sorted like decent care and support for sick and disabled people, housing sorted, healthcare sorted, proper advocacy sorted is a recipe for mass culling of the vulnerable.

Probably best to euthanize these ones at birth as they will only suffer in their lives....

Well of course I don't think that. But that is perfectly logical within the framework of "suffering makes life not worth living and we have a duty of care."

If that can of worms is opened there will be no getting them back in, and the courts will push through all the logical outcomes if legislators don't have the stomach for it.

@TempestTost What about a balance?

A grown adult can make a decision for themselves. A baby can't. Suicide attempts can often lead to life long impairments when they go wrong. A dignified and respectful option to die is far more compassionate than forcing someone to risk severe disability where they are dependent on others for the rest of their unwanted lives.

I think it's pretty repugnant that those who made Noelia's life unbearable can carry on living, and do the same to other women, whilst she's in a position where she was assisted to die.

Surely if this is the road being gone down, then the death penalty for abhorrent crimes needs to be reconsidered.

I personally don't think the number of people who will be murdered is worth the small number who will benefit from 'assisted dying'. People can and do commit suicide, it's not that difficult to do and in that case at least you know they weren't coerced.

I do think if there could be significant guardrails around it, helping people who are in severe pain because of unsuccessful previous suicide attempts might be the only case where I can think of that this is justified. But the slippery slope exists.

Thank you. Hopefully I'll never be in the position that it's something that I have to deal with in relation to my children. Not to be too outing, my children have a high percentage risk of a hereditary illness, but it will be in later adulthood. My only hope is that I predecease them because it's unbearable not being able to save them. They each have, so far, chosen not to be tested.

But I have been in situations where euthanasia was warranted and will be forever grateful to the doctors in those situations
(two - immediately family in two different countries, one where it's legal but difficult and one where it's illegal but happens)

and still feel very very upset where doctors were not helpful
(not immediate family and nothing to do with me but it was wrong what happened but doctors are terrified and relations not proactive or just let it up to the 'systems' / 'state' to decide).

For the parents who have to make these decisions, they have my full support and indeed they are very brave and loving parents. These are the most heartbreaking of decisions to make.

I'm very glad that the deeply unrealistic "but you can always get better and there are painkillers!" naive or religiously extreme people are slowly being outweighed by the people who have had experience of their family members actually living with this pain. The Christian culture of life-at-all-costs has an enormous amount of suffering to answer for.

All you've done here is call people names. I have a spinal cord injury, CPTSD, and have been in constant pain for over 20 years. I know many people with CPTSD and with chronic pain. Almost all of them have wanted to die at some point but almost all have adjusted and live good lives. They're generally happy. How are my views deeply unrealistic? In what way are yours better informed?

It's already hard enough to get supportive care and treatment. It took years to get my spinal tumor diagnosed and that was before I was disabled. I was a woman so the pain and symptoms were all in my head. Many already consider my life worthless because I haven't been able to have a job. I've had doctors insist that I continue ironically named antidepressants that made me extremely suicidal. I'm viewed as a net loss because the cost of my care and treatments exceeds the amount I earn.

I can easily envision a scenario where the state denies benefits and treatment to disabled people. especially women and girls, who are expensive to care for, driving them to despair. It's hard not to be despondent when you're disabled; lack the help you need; have insecure food, housing, etc. Maybe even pushing them along a bit, either with medicine or withholding needed medicine, and their doctors and other carers encouraging them to consider assisted suicide. Then the state agreeing with their request for assisted suicide. How is society going to prevent that?

For the parents who have to make these decisions, they have my full support and indeed they are very brave and loving parents. These are the most heartbreaking of decisions to make.

Yes.

Yes.

Sometimes the deepest, most truly compassionate thing you can do is to take the hard decisions especially when your child is in unendurable pain.

I was looking at a very severe worsening of my painful health condition last year, the worst in 30 years, and Unive was appalling. I cannot say how much of a mental comfort it was and is, to know that assisted dying is available. But I have to get both my sons to adulthood first.

@GenderlessVoid I'm sorry for your situation but as I posted above, others in comparable situations do want assisted dying.

And the fact is that very often "but there are painkillers! you can get better from depression!" is rolled out a lot and it simply does not address the reality that for some people, this is just not the case.

I would be deeply concerned about some aspects in the UK - it's not a country that believes in building compassion and human dignity into the structure of society, as witnessed indeed by the difficulty in getting PiP and other benefits for disabled people, by the way that social services has been nearly destroyed and by the way that prisoners are treated. There really are serious concerns there, I can't disagree.

But honestly, the people who have the most right to talk here imo are the ones who do live with that severe pain and I'm afraid I simply disagree with you.

It's fine to disagree but it would be better if you addressed my concerns. I don't want to criminalize suicide attempts. I think that anyone who is contemplating suicide should get support to make their life better but if they ultimately decide it's not worth living, that is their choice. I don't want the state involved. It's too easy for them to make people's lives worse to the point that death seems like a blessing. It's far too easy for them to decide that it's cheaper and better for "undesirable" people, especially minorities, women, and disabled people to die than to be a drain on society.

Is it a coincidence that all the questionable cases here are women? Have 17 year old boys been granted euthanasia due to PTSD / trauma?

I said above that imo that the people whose voice should have the most weight are the ones who live with that intense, incurable pain. You are one of those, so your view is not (imo) unrealistic. But you have to have seen there are an awful lot of anti-euthanasists who do say "but painkillers will solve the problem". I certainly have.

The fact that medical people are highly dismissive of pain, especially women's pain, is a severe problem and it's clear that for a genuinely civilized society this deeply dismissive attitude should change. If nothing else, because actually even if it were a mental issue, that doesn't make it any the less painful.

About the value of disabled peoples' lives (of whom I am one) - yes, it's seen as less. I can't work either and have been faced with that attitude too. It still comes down to changing societal attitudes and I agree that this is a huge problem in the UK. I don't personally believe that people would be pushed towards euthanasia by the medical / social professions in the way that people fear, in the UK. I'd be more worried that families push older relatives towards it to get the money. How to stop that? I don't know. But if you allow euthanasia as a country, then some injustices will happen. Equally if you don't allow euthanasia some injustices will happen. There's no simple clear easy answer.

It still doesn't alter the fact that "you'll feel better in the future" is often patronizing - people have quoted the Guardian article about the 29 year old Dutch woman who wanted to die because of mental distress as if it's a terrible thing that euthanasia was offered to her. Where is the respect for her, in that? if you read the article she knew exactly what she was doing, and why, and what the prospects for successful treatment were.

In the end, yes, some people may die who would otherwise have lived, and perhaps come to be glad of it. Equally, some may be refused end of life who profoundly long for it, know what they are about and should, in a civilized society, be offered the step out.

In the end it comes down to respecting people's ability to decide their own course of their lives. That respect is at the core of how I believe euthanasia should be handled. "But you might feel better later" regarding mental distress is a good reason to not extend euthanasia for some years perhaps, but after a certain period the consistent, stated desire to die and having gone through all available treatments, then I believe it is right to respect that desire.

It's also extremely cruel to leave people suffering terminal cancer who painkillers can't help to die in great pain. 98% of people in the NL who go for euthanasia go for physical reasons.

I think I've answered you as well as I can. Can you now address my concerns?

Children's brains don't develop faster because they suffer trauma and pain.

Although what's at issue here isn't hastening an imminent, terminal death in a cancer patient who is suffering severe pain, but causing death in a person who might otherwise live for many years.

And frankly, suicide is never 'brave' - but as an able-bodied adult, needing the government to do it for you instead of doing the deed yourself, and taking the attitude that you're being 'forced' to stay alive if they don't, is particularly cowardly.

I will say that in quite a few cases (and again, this is something I've seen frequently in the past) a number of the disabled people who are against euthanasia are against it because of the appalling treatment they have received by the medical profession and by most people - even their own families, often enough. That their lives are valueless.

I suspect that in some cases the disagreement with euthanasia is because of instinctive fear that some people would send them personally for death. In a society where the culture is that every single person is entitled to the treatment that would be effective and every person is entitled to respect, then that visceral fear might not exist.

NB: I certainly do not mean that this applies to all disabled people who disagree with euthanasia being available. Nuance exists.

I suffered severe depression for well over a decade in my youth. If I had lived in a country that offered assisted suicide for mental illness, I would be long gone. Euthanasia should never be an option for people with mental health issues. When you are that miserable it feels like it's never going to end. But for many it does, or at least it becomes much more bearable. I would much rather those people were given the chance at life than make it easier for those that wouldn't improve to opt out. Anyone who wants to commit suicide can research reliable and relatively painless methods on line.

I don't think you've address my issue about the state's power at all.

I'm not sure what your concerns are. Can you state them in bullet point?

I agree that doctor's are dismissive of pain, especially women's and minority groups' pain. It's now considered a "fifth vital sign", which is an improvement from decades ago, but society and medicine still has a long way to go in understanding and treating pain.

To reiterate, I'm not suggesting that we make attempting suicide illegal. People should have that option, though I think society needs to do much more to make people's lives worth living.

In your opinion. Which seems to have overlooked the face that Noelia did try to commit suicide. You can find moral value in pain if you like. I see it as simply a sensation which has no moral aspect to it. Sometimes it's necessary, like resetting a broken limb. Sometimes it is simply pointless.

@GenderlessVoid attempts at suicide very often go wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attempt

If the state legislates for the provision of effective euthanasia, as in the NL, then the exit from life will be far more effective.

But at no point have you addressed the situation for 98% of people who go for euthanasia, they do so for physical reasons (Nl, again). 86% have terminal illnesses. I don't see any point engaging further with you until you can do this, because it's the core of the issue given the proportions involved.