Mixed sex changing rooms in a Brighton secondary school - part 3 - we're really cooking now

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

Hello friends.

I'll let the press do the talking...

https://www.gbnews.com/news/trans-school-court-changing-rooms

Then ask that, in a way in which you’d hope I respond and have an adult conversation. Not in the manner of a rude person.

I don’t believe men should be in women only spaces or vice versa.

Do you mean all men, regardless of whether they are TIM's or not? So often, the word men excludes those who identify as women - with the result that the meaning becomes 'men must stay out, but TW can come right on in'.

https://x.com/Ashworth101/status/2051929062587748418

I am beginning to suspect there may be a serious flaw in the KCSIE guidance coming in in September which is the potential loophole These schools are using to create mixed sex toilets that are not up to spec as in – a fully enclosed single occupancy room with floor to ceiling doors a sink and a toilet

I am also very aware of the health risks related to this layout and I do not believe schools are doing health and safety impact assessments when taking these steps

Anyone not on TwiX can only see Louise’s (one) post - can you/someone link to something so we can see the details please?

I believe biological sex is sex and I repeat that there should be no men in female spaces and vice versa.

I also believe that I am able to have a friendship and level of empathy for my friend as an individual. FWIW they avoid all scenarios where the toilet /changing could be an issue but I appreciate that’s only one individual and still support the OP.

I think the majority of people treat others, regardless of how they present, with dignity and respect - providing that's reciprocated and single sex spaces are respected, and that men (all men, not just the ones who don't identify as trans) keep out of those women (that excludes men who identify as women) only spaces.

The problem has arisen because the word woman has been hijacked by men, and so women only spaces has come to mean nothing in many cases - often when people say they don't think men should be in women's spaces they actually only mean only men who don't identify as trans. Of course, men also includes TW who may (rarely) have had surgery and those who haven't, so it's important to check meaning - otherwise we have men like Dr Upton who continue to use women only spaces as their right and continue to treat women who have specifically asked for a female doctor.

I presume that post is in relation to this post, not sure if that gives you enough context
https://x.com/birdybooky/status/2051746039158149482?

@Dragonasaurus Try this one (EyesOpening's one didn't work for me).
In general, you can replace the x.com part of the URL with nitter.net and you should be able to see any other posts.

https://nitter.net/Ashworth101/status/2051929062587748418

Oh so that’s not the tweet I posted, try this https://nitter.net/birdybooky/status/2051746039158149482?

Thanks, @EyesOpening, well worth a read.

That’s where my research comes in.
I got to that ‘bloody hell’ moment several years ago.

I did FOIs with the DfE and they did not hold risk assessments nor equality impact assessments for these private cubicle designs. They also could not tell me what incidents had happened in them as it would take too long to find out if they could even collate the information.

So I have investigated schools and toilet designs in public places.

It really isn’t a good idea to have private cubicles in public open mixed sex environments.

However, I note KCSIE does mention (blink and you miss it) doing a risk assessment for adding any mixed sex toilet provision - I can’t remember the wording now. Also in the new design guidelines this year it mentions sanitary product provision in the female ‘suite’ which is new. It talks about separate girls and boys toilets.

Cubicles were never meant to be for mixed sex use. Rooms, fully enclosed with toilets, sinks and dryers, are regulated for mixed sex use. Schools got away with it because they were excluded from certain legislation.

However, there is other legislation and regulations and a duty of care which I believe means they require toilets with door gaps for a reasonable adjustment for all sorts of conditions and ambulant disabilities, and of course any child at their most vulnerable - having a medical or other emergency.

This picture I use is based on many real life events.

I don't know if this is helpful but this is a section of the unfiltered British average person's feelings when toilets become suddenly and unexpectedly mixed sex

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx21ldqqgw9o

Albeit unplanned and possibly temporarily.

I think those toilets are in a school in Dublin

Yes, Harold's Cross is in Dublin

That school toilet set up in Dublin is similar to many schools in England, Scotland and Wales. Sometimes the pupils themselves will unofficially divide the toilets up to boys and girls. Obviously the cubicles have to become completely private because of the boys behaviour. Another trend is to have big circular communal sinks.

Another trend is to have big circular communal sinks.

Like they have in (men's) motorway services toilets? Fine there, but all of that is completely inappropriate in a school.

So, FayeRC has won her tribunal. Is this going to be useful for you, @SingleSexSpacesInSchools ? Feels like a very similar case, surely there can be no way a different outcome could be reached especially when for you there's also the safeguarding of children aspect.

Press release re FayeRC tribunal outcome

I am absolutely confident that as long as a judicial review is granted there is no way that this could be lost. We are caught up in court backlog and administration, but still on course. It will absolutely be better for all children if this does get to a judicial review stage rather than being dismissed as school guidance may be changing in the future.

This related case will undoubtedly bolster things. We need a winning case in every area of life the NHS schools colleges and universities workplace public toilets.

Keeping my fingers firmly crossed!

I hate those sinks :D

Yes nail on head

Everyone who does not know Brighton should try to get a really good idea of how bat shit it is here - https://x.com/AdrianHartQuPk/status/1682285615042183168?s=20

and

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2023/01/30/does-brighton-have-a-woman-problem/

and

https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2024/06/24/women-shelter-in-shop-after-protesters-tail-them-from-rally/

Yes I was thinking about this. The judge added two strong higher court judgments re Workplace Regs that are a slam dunk across the UK.

As @Keeptoiletssafe reminds me there are no equivalent slam dunk protections for children. But if women are discriminated against by men in the ladies how much more so are our young girls.

That's almost funny, isn't it?
On the one hand, there's 'nobody cares' etc.
On the other hand there's
Asked how she felt about men using the women's facilities, she said: "It's a bit of a sticky situation.
"I think having little ones, it's just not great from a child protection point of view.
"They should be kept separate."
"Sometimes people look down at a man walking out of the ladies' toilets with a little child, saying, 'you shouldn't be in there'."

I'm not saying vox populi vox dei, but it is an interesting illustration of how ingrained the idea of sex-segregated toilets is.

In fact it seems that as soon as you remove the word trans and the immediate urge to "be kind" the British public are absolutely uncomfortable and against any sort of mixed sex toilets and a very happy to say they don't like it