Uta Frith, women, autism, and what Dr Stock, Helen Lewis etc think...

[Missproportionate]

Helen Lewis and Kathleen Stock have both commented on this article on X, both slightly ambiguously, as if they aren't sure what to think.

Wondered what anyone on here thinks about this? I am also ambiguous, but full disclosure: I have been diagnosed with autism at the age of 50, I haven't told very many people because I see a lot of identifying as 'neurospicy' online, and it seems to be connected to the whole 'I'm not normal, oh no I'm special' idea that I think has parallels with the queer community. I don't want to be on that bandwagon, I just want to make sense of myself.

I was diagnosed through a long process with several professionals, and a 3 hour interview with me, and a 3 hour interview with my mum about me as a child. I fitted in all the separate areas of criteria. I doubt people I work with or interact with superficially would guess ( but they may find me irritating or insensitive or interrupting - I find it hard to tell).

But it worries me a bit that women who are autistic might be seen as 'not real' and lumped in with the trans community in some way. But then how does that
then work? because as has been observed many times, girls who present with gender dysphoria are very often diagnosed/undiagnosed autistic. I think we should be leaning into attending to the autism in girls, and how an autistic girl might find being trans attractive as a way to 'solve' their feelings of not belonging. If we start to question the genuineness of their autism, we risk failing those girls even more. Don't we?

I don't know what to think.

Uta Frith interview in TLS

I don't think the curriculum is enough to explain the explosion in SEN. Covid possibly contributes, social media definitely does. Inability to concentrate for any length of time is widespread.

I’m in Ireland where the curriculum is different and there has also been an explosion in SEN. So I’d agree with you. Children start school later, usually at about 5 (depending on birthdays) and are then in ‘Infants’ for two years where play is viewed as central to achieving pedagogical goals.

Teachers definitely report an increased inability to concentrate in children.

No I don’t think it’s just the curriculum. But a tougher and more fast paced curriculum at the same time as increasing Sen will mean more struggle more quickly.

I expect it’s multi factorial.

one gp I know said foetal drug syndrome was on the increase. (And that can be due to either parent.) There may be other reasons we don’t know about.

There was news this week that life expectancy is dropping in the U.K. too. We aren’t as healthy as we once were.

Sorry this is long.
As a parent of two autistic young adults I'm finding this debate challenging - but I think it's important not to be defensive. I'm very aware of the comparisons with the trans debate and as GC feminist I really don't want to fall into the same trap many parents of sex dysphoric/gender non-conforming children have in terms of not being open to other explanations or theories for our children's pain/ symptoms.

I think my DC's story reflects the changes to the diagnostic criteria over the last couple of decades. My son and daughter were originally referred for assessment in the early '00 by the school ed psych when they were in nursery and primary school (completely unprompted by us) due to their atypical behaviours (DS - social/communication issues, stimming, hyper-sensitivity to noise, food issues, all consuming special interest. DD - developmental delays, lack of engagement, repetitive behaviour, unintelligible speech, echolalia).

Neither of them had melt downs or PDA. We called our DD our 'fairy child' as she was just quite otherworldly - appearing completely self-sufficient in her own world, limited 'sing song' speech, happy but often appearing completely oblivious to outside stimuli. (She has a NT twin so her unusual behaviour was perhaps even more noticeable in comparison.) Our DS hit all his developmental milestones - he fitted the 'little professor' description much more than his sister - early intense maths interest - but he was much more anxious, very literal and in a school environment had no clue how to 'play' or interact with other kids.

This was over two decades ago and at the time my son was diagnosed as having only 'traits' of Asperger's (probably because his interactions with adults were very good) a level of dyspraxia and executive function difficulties, my daughter was diagnosed with delayed speech and some attention and processing issues. They were given support sessions from speech therapists and ed psychs and other than being placed on the special educational needs register within school their childhoods continued in a fairly standard way - I think partly because they attended a very inclusive 'leafy' school that embraced individuality and had a strict anti-bullying policy.

It was secondary school that derailed them both completely - resulting in mental breakdowns, school refusal, therapy and medication. They developed debilitating co-morbidities - skin picking, emetophobia, GAD, clinical depression, suicide ideation. It was a horrendously difficult period for the whole family. Their senior school and university years were hugely impacted by their mental health struggles leading to a reassessment of their diagnoses in their late teens/early 20s - both were then diagnosed with the new label of autism.

But the thing is - they still got to university - one of them has a PhD. They're both employed - although part time due to their health needs - and although they both still live at home, they could, with support, live independently in the future. Their struggles have shaped their social lives and career choices meaning they may find it harder to meet partners and their jobs don't reflect their academic potential or creative abilities - which feels like a waste of talent but at least they have agency over their lives. This is completely different to the next generation of children being born into our extended family who have 'classic' autism, are non-verbal, incontinent, can't attend mainstream school and may never be employed or live independently. Probably because of witnessing this, both my DC feel the current 'autism spectrum' label is too broad and an Asperger's diagnosis would more accurately reflect their daily challenges compared to their cousins.

The only other thing I would say is, I really hope this debate doesn't play into the hands of those just wanting to justify reducing the already limited support higher functioning autists can access. Someone up thread talked about 'stealing' support from the less able/ more vulnerable. There really is very limited support for higher functioning adults as it is - my own children have found it practically impossible to access any meaningful support once they aged out of CAMHs - 90% of their support has always come from family anyway. The main benefits for them of a diagnosis has been a greater understanding of themselves, improved self esteem and the legal protection to ask for reasonable adjustments at work if needed. This hasn't cost the tax payer very much at all.

Not that it can be helped in practice but mightn’t some children experience so much stress (cortisol) /separation anxiety because of being put into nurseries at a young age that they become affected?
I have the impression this question is taboo.

I don’t think so. This is definitely a more recent thing than kids being put in nurseries.

We have discussed here on fwr the issues with data farming (?) I can’t remember the term - when academics quote and reference each other so much that a postured theory becomes fact with huge lists of references.

That would be "idea laundering":

Idea laundering--a very useful concept
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3872302-Idea-laundering-a-very-useful-concept

Peter Boghossian | WHAT IS IDEA LAUNDERING?

Grievance Studies Affair
grokipedia.com/page/Grievance_studies_affair

I find this interesting too. What was the bit he didn’t understand? Does he have any learning difficulties as well, or only autism?

What do you think was the reason that secondary was so much harder and derailed them? I know secondary school is a big change for kids.

@JamclagI know this must be a very challenging debate. Your descriptions do fit all my experiences of children with autism, especially your daughter. I think it’s important that this debate doesn’t lessen diagnosis at all. I do think that’s why people are so angry as they seem to think it will.

this research has just been released

https://www.durham.ac.uk/news-events/latest-news/2026/03/covid-lockdowns-set-back-childrens-development-for-years/

a study found that covid lockdowns significantly impacted executive function

executive function is a significant difficulty for a wide range of conditions and also a side effect of early life trauma (or later to be honest) as well as autism and adhd.

That would suggest that current Y6 are the worst hit and that things are better for Y5 and below. I can’t say I’m getting that impression from primary colleagues?

An interesting article in TES responding to Frith

”Frith uses “hypersensitivity” as a term, and I think this is worth exploring further, but associating hypersensitivity with the construct of resilience is dangerous because it implies that children are not trying hard enough or are not tough enough.
This misses the point. These children are trying too hard to be like others all the time, every day.
Research shows that autistic girls have a stronger drive for social engagement and a heightened response to social rejection, and, with that, a “natural” propensity to fit in, or mask.
Minimising the importance of understanding the drive for masking is, therefore, dangerous.
Girls and women who have not been able to develop a secure sense of self, an understanding and comfort with their own preferred ways of being, are at risk of increased vulnerability to control by others.”

Which would feed into the concerns about autistic girls adopting trans identities raised by others.

https://www.tes.com/magazine/analysis/general/why-uta-frith-wrong-about-girls-and-autism

I didn't read the Frith article as saying that children who she called 'hypersensitive' just aren't trying hard enough.

I thought she was saying that for a variety of reasons, this could be considered a separate group from the diagnosis formerly known as Aspergers.

People do seem determined to read in to the Frith article what isn't there.

From Naomi Fisher

"We started a podcast with the deliberate aim of talking to a range of voices. We had had enough of the polarisation and mudslinging of social media.

We went to significant effort to seek out different perspectives. Our criterion was not whether they agreed with us, but whether we thought they would have an interesting angle to add. We made it clear in the podcast that the views of the guests did not necessarily represent those of the hosts.

From the start we wanted this to be a space where people explained their ideas so that the listener could understand and make up their own mind. We wanted to model openness and tolerance of disagreement.

When we released our first episode, with Dame Uta Frith, we quickly discovered why these conversations are impossible. She said things which some people disagreed with, and as a result they blamed us for platforming her. There was little reasoned discussion of her ideas, and a lot of flinging of mud. People I had worked with and who I respected recorded videos about the harm I was causing and how disappointed they were. Others made huge assumptions about what we, as interviewers thought, including dismissing the suffering of others and having a right wing agenda to cut benefits. Things that Uta had not said were attributed to her, and by association to us.

Immediately, our other podcast guests started to withdraw. People whose work I really respected and who had fascinating things to say backed away, scared perhaps that they too would be tainted by association. Their viewpoints were very different to Uta and that is exactly why we asked them. Just like when we interviewed Uta, we wanted to really hear and understand what they had to say. That won’t be possible now.

There’s something going on in the online autism world, and it’s not healthy. Many people are terrified to say what they think, for fear of the sort of thing that has happened to me this week. Useful and valid viewpoints are not being heard. Self-censuring is rife. Online shaming has been normalised. As a result, the growth of knowledge is being stifled.

If you disagree with what Uta Frith said and you’d like to come on our podcast, please email us via my website. We’d love to have you."

No, I don’t think that Frith was saying that either. But calling a group ‘hypersensitive’ can give the impression of ‘overly sensitive’. There’s certainly a drive to suggest that modern children lack resilience and give up too easily so words need to be chosen carefully to avoid misunderstanding I guess.

Changes in school expectations.

Computers are, I am sure, driving basic changes. Both because of parents being absorbed and then the children. I suspect it's going to be discovered that kids using a lot of these at a young age is no less creating brain changes than if they were taking drugs.

And I think you are right about increasing use of drugs. I am in Canada which is a little different as we have legalised cannabis over the last 10 years. It has in that time become ubiquitous, people treat them almost like a health food product, not smoking but as an edible, in beverages, or vapes. Including quite young people, and often supplied by parents. But it seems like culturally there is now an acceptance off all kinds of chemical and surgical augmentation as the norm. I've wondered what the effect of this will be long term., in terms of health - we really have no idea what such widespread drug use will do to children.

I'm starting to see this kind of behaviour as a massive red flag in health and science in particular. We see it with gender ideology, with autism and other "neurodivergent" health conditions, we saw it with covid.

There is something really wrong going on in the medical community.

I wonder if NF has been aware of this for years but considers now being the right time to challenge it.

People in the ‘autism world’ will have been aware of what has being going on in the ‘world of trans’. NF is a clinical psychologist and will have studied the Cass Review, the PB trial controversy etc. She will have seen big names in the field of Autism diagnosis object to the trial.

I think she knew this would be the online reaction. Perhaps she didn’t think academics would refuse to participate in her podcast and essentially cancel her.

I know a couple of big name ‘public speaker’ researchers who, whilst not adored by the autism advocate ‘mob’, are tolerated and who withhold their views that align with Frith’s. I think they originally feared cancellation but know things are changing on that front. However, they aren’t speaking out right now because they think their points will be misused to support a wider agenda. They are concerned about often ill-informed narrative on over diagnosis from the ‘stop thinking you’re special and get on with it’ side and concerns about the SEND white paper.

Yes...agree she could have chosen a better word.

People tend to equate 'sensitive' with 'too sensitive' implying fault.

Its probably impossible to say but do you think if they had been able to do their secondary education in a setting (or the same place) s their primary school, they wouldnt have had the breakdowns?

Do you have a view about how much puberty and hormonal changes may influence that too?

I keep reading that due to the lack of estrogen at menopause this is why the wheels are coming off for many women leading to late diagnosis, I cant remember the theory now but its about estrogen depletion and abilities.

Can someone explain what the ‘cancellations’ are about? Why is it taboo to suggest that a single diagnosis isn’t helpful for multiple different manifestations?

I don’t understand why this conversation is massively contentious (when this thread seems very calm!)

I think there's multiple factors. There's a huge amount of self-diagnosis (putting my hand up here to this) and with that some messaging like "we're all a bit autistic (so why are you making such a big deal)", people getting really het up about perceived attacks on their community, worried about SEND provision being rolled back, difficulties accessing what little help is currently available. There's so much going on there.

I feel like Ute has had a bit of a JKR treatment there, with people paraphrasing her words and passing it around, then getting really upset on the internet and winding each other up.

I’ve been following with interest and name-changed to comment as I’ve got a recently diagnosed ASD 15yo DD.

She had a very difficult time at primary school in KS2, but secondary has been much better (we were lucky enough to be able to pick an academically selective, all girls school with small classes and lots of flexibility). It makes me wonder if its more the type of school, rather than the age range, that makes the difference.

What has become clearer is that what looks like communication is often not. The story of the health appointment above would be true for her, too. With a lot of effort and support she can come across as very shy but highly verbal and intelligent. But she’s using that intelligence to work out what she thinks the person wants her to say (generally agreeing). She cannot identify her own emotions at all (though she picks up easily on what other people are feeling), she often can’t locate physical pain, she can be very literal (but not always) and she is unable to speak when stressed or anxious or in any sort of group.

I can see this is hugely different to a non verbal person with autism, and I really don’t mind what its officially called. But she definitely does need some small but specific adaptations to keep her in school, and to enable her to commicate her needs both in and outside school.

Yes, this is part of the problem.

There can be different understandings of words across professional contexts, lay people meaning and other meanings adopted within campaigning/ advocacy groups.

The term impairment comes to mind. Diagnosticians are likely to think of impairment as being an objective measure of functionality linked to a condition, disease or injury.
The average person is likely to think of impairment as relating to something a person can’t do.
A campaigner might see ‘impairment’ as a construct designed to marginalise and exclude groups of people.

I think UF’s use of ‘hypersensitivity’ may well be shorthand for a group of symptoms that impair functionality. I doubt there was any judgement about worthiness of attention or support. She may have in mind a constellation of sensitivities linked to perception, processing and the parasympathetic nervous system.

It’s a travesty that people’s first line of thinking is, lets me check what was meant before going ballistic and starting a witch hunt.

On the point of language, it’s interesting that so many people want to be seen as being the same and that sameness being understood as autism. What sits behind this? What is the concern about a different, more precise label being introduced that will, in turn, lead to better support? Is the concern just that they will be dismissed as not having equal but different needs worthy of investment and support, or is it that the label ‘autism’ means more to them than the diagnostic intention of the label?

Some see autism as an identity and not a diagnostic label. They argue that there is nothing disabling about autism, just oppressive behaviours of others causing avoidable harm. This group will inevitably find any discussion about autism through a diagnostic lens offensive and upsetting.