Enby they/them pronouns - what's the law on this?

[SirChenjins]

New person coming into my team who I think may want others to use they/them. I have a standard team signature that I don't want altered, but if my suspicions are correct and she starts bringing her whole enby self to work, where do we stand legally if I or anyone else says nope, not doing that?

I know the moral arguments on each side of the debate so don't want a rehash of the for's and against's, just want to know where I stand in law .

Being trans or non-binary is just something you are.

What is it, though?

You say your daughter identifies as trans, but that she's quite feminine, and she is comfortable with her female body. So for her, it's neither about stereotypes nor about dislike of her body. So why does she want to pretend she's a boy? Surely she's just a normal girl with her own personality and interests.

I remember the huge fuss that was made when a girl with Down syndrome couldn't get 'preferred pronouns' correct and ran and hid (from the male who identified as a woman) as she became so distressed by the situation and the 'corrections'. She was absolutely torn apart by the TRAs online, and her disability was, according to them, no excuse.

If that’s directed at me, you specifically told someone that their husband should try out “dressing as a visible trans woman”. As he wouldn’t actually be trans identified, he’d literally be a bloke in a dress wouldn’t he. The fact that I don’t actually make much of a distinction between those two different males is by the by, it was your thought experiment. It seems that post has gone now though, hey ho.

@TransParentlyAnnoyed This whole thread was started because the OP did not want to be polite and respectful to someone different to them.

Why are trans people/nonbinary people not polite and respectful to us, by not forcing us to play along with their delusions? Every time I have to use "she" for a man, it's a headfuck.

Smiling tolerance is the way to approach other people's little quirks. We can't all agree about everything at work but we do make allowances for each other. And equally I would expect her to tolerate with a smile quite a high level of forgetfulness about her they/thems. I wouldn't be going legalistic about it, the legal position isn't clear so don't meet trouble halfway.

I agree and I certainly won't be throwing legalise at this from the outset before the issue has even been raised - I've been clear on that. What I've said though is that I'd like to be prepared in case the smiling tolerance approach doesn't work and I start to see any level of compelled speech or intentional inappropriate behaviour from anyone. Forewarned etc, and the cases mentioned have been very helpful.

again you are picking and choosing. I can guarantee that there are many, many offices in the country whereby if you called the CEO 'smithy' or repeatedly offered Fatimah a biscuit after she had told you please not to, you would be subject to disciplinary proceedings. Which is what OP is actually asking - what is the law? Not 'how much of a twat can I get away with being - legally versus socially?'

I have no idea what you're on about in regard to 'violating their dignity' as that's not something I mentioned, nor (obviously) anything OP's as yet un-met colleague could have had the chance to accuse anyone of. So you're arguing against something nobody has said. Which, on the scale of stupidity, is certainly up there.

Obviously nobody should be made to use someone else's pronouns if they disagree with them. But in a case whereby there's a perfectly simple solution that means you don't have to do that, it would be the person continuing to be awkward just to make a point who should get in trouble.

I can guarantee that there are many, many offices in the country whereby if you called the CEO 'smithy' or repeatedly offered Fatimah a biscuit after she had told you please not to, you would be subject to disciplinary proceedings. Which is what OP is actually asking - what is the law?

That’s part of the point, isn’t it? In consecutive sentences you are conflating what may trigger a disciplinary proceeding, and what the law says. They’re obviously not the same.

Would be worth looking at Audrey Ludwig's feed on X or LinkedIn to see if she has talked about this.
(She's an employment lawyer who is also a sex realist. Definitely worth a follow.
Tanya de Grunwald may also have covered it in her podcasts or LinkedIn posts.

As are a lot of trans & nb people. Probably because they can't mask who they really are.

Well that's one theory! 😂

Even though he has had no treatment whatsoever,

Well, you're the lucky parent then, aren't you? That's like saying "my kid told me he's a junkie" and how lovely that he feels authentic and I know all about him now even though he's never taken any heroin whatsoever.

If your son starts taking any "treatment" he'll soon have much bigger problems than authenticity. It's lovely that you talk about periods but do you talk about incontinence? Because if your son thinks about starting testosterone then he needs to think very seriously about that too.

"Deadnaming". Sheesh. What a cruel concept and you and your child have swallowed it whole.

Why do people come onto the FWR board and ask why we’re “fixated on trans people”. You’re on the part of MN that was set aside to allow us to do this. If you don’t like it, why not pop onto Home Decoration or Films etc?

Are non-binary people trans? Does it depend on the individual and whether they themselves claim to be trans, as opposed to them "falling under the trans umbrella" whether they think they are or not when they say they are non-binary? None of the ones I know have had their meat and two veg excised, nor their tits removed, nor taken any drugs for it, so they seem to me very much to be leaving their options open and just saying it – with perhaps less permanency than having a tattoo.

I regard this as a thoroughly good thing, because mutilating yourself or setting up lifelong dependencies when you are in your teens is as stupid, to me, as getting yourself hooked on heroin would be.

Who was that actor who was arrested and kept saying 'I'm trans non-binary!'?

Ezra something. That video was eye-opening.

How can someone be 'gender non conforming' if they were 'baffled by the concept of male or female'?