Enby they/them pronouns - what's the law on this?

[SirChenjins]

New person coming into my team who I think may want others to use they/them. I have a standard team signature that I don't want altered, but if my suspicions are correct and she starts bringing her whole enby self to work, where do we stand legally if I or anyone else says nope, not doing that?

I know the moral arguments on each side of the debate so don't want a rehash of the for's and against's, just want to know where I stand in law .

I'm not expected to refer to Jane Smith as "Mrs Smith" in emails, but as "Jane", so that's an utter red herring. Who, in current year, works somewhere that isn't using first names?

Practice is for sports and musical instruments, not basic language components, unless you are learning a foreign language. As an adult, "practice" isn't something any of us should be coerced into doing for anything.

These clowns are trying to make English become like a foreign language for native speakers and are trying to coerce us into "practicing" this newspeak, something one does for one's hobbies, just to keep our jobs.

But marriage exists. I'm married. Does your lack of belief mean that I don't exist?

I don't believe in gender identity as a useful concept. Men are men. Does my lack of belief mean that you don't exist?

Uh, yes I am neurodivergent. (So are all my sons. Very common within my family.)

As are a lot of trans & nb people. Probably because they can't mask who they really are.

You don't say "hi, they/them" to someone's face, just when referring to them. I don't say "hi, he/him" to my kid either.

He's just him. Same as I know my step-gran wasn't my real gran, but called her that anyway.

The most common response when I told my friends about the boy's transition was: oh no, what if I mess that up? I reassured them he wouldn't mind accidental deadnaming etc, it's normal. But all of them met him, realised it was no big deal & just stopped worrying.

It's hard to explain, but when someone transitions (by which I mean drop the pretence of who they felt they had to be) it's a huge change. A whole new, totally authentic person is revealed to you. And you realise: this is who they always were. It feels right.

It's the opposite of pretence.

I felt humbled, because my god I wished I'd known earlier. He had been out to his friends for years before telling me. I felt like I'd only ever known a fraction of him.

It's not a case of 'lost a daughter, gained a son'. He is my child, and exactly the same person - except he now trusts me with knowing who he really is.

And being trans is the very least of that. He isn't permanently playing a character - just no longer living a lie. Even though he has had no treatment whatsoever, I see him as...himself. We talk about periods, street harassment, contraception, how to keep himself safe. I'm not buying into a pretence - just accepting reality.

Sorry, that's a lot! But there is nothing to fear from the truth, which is that trans and nb people exist.

I'm neurodivergent, as are many trans/nb people. And I have no issue with being polite.

One of my family has severe LD & he can grasp the concept that some people are trans, so please don't give me that ridiculous, ableist excuse for lack of respect.

Perhaps you don't remember the previous fight for inclusive language, when more women entered the workplace. My God the pushback against the use of 'chair' and 'chairperson'. The way so many people pronounced "Ms" with audible scorn. Even protesting at Star Trek saying "where no one has gone before."

Language evolves, so does society. It moves to include more people who previously were excluded.

Ableism, homophobia, racism, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, misogyny and yes, transphobia are tackled at root by inclusive language. Respect for someone different to you costs absolutely nothing. Existence is not violence.

Everybody is ‘non binary’ . Nobody conforms completely to the stereotypes of one gender. So yes, in that sense it’s totally ‘normal’, as it’s all of us. It doesn’t warrant a plural pronoun, as everyone is also still male or female.

I agree with your first part, but I think that’s also why I don’t find the singular ’their’ as jarring as others obviously do. I use it quite routinely and maybe part of that is a throwback to older feminist arguments around ‘desexing’ language. I’ve been quite surprised tbh that hardly anyone on a feminist board seems aware of some of the (much older than trans activism) debates around the need for a singular third person pronoun that doesn’t signal the sex of the individual, and how ‘their’ might satisfy need. Discussion of this dates back to the 70s.

No, being non-binary is very different. I am nb. But I never previously had the words for it.

I still use the word 'woman' to refer to my life, as that's how other people see me.

(Incidentally, being categorised as 'not cis male' is the sole experience all women - cis, trans or nb but female presenting - have in common. It's not babies, periods or feelings - it's fear of misogynistic male violence.)

But I grew up baffled by the concept of male and female, and never felt I fitted the word 'female'. I don't use 'they/them' but am changing to 'Mx' as it just fits me better. I'm overjoyed to discover it's not just me - and support everyone who uses they/them. They're braver than me.

An 'authentic self' that requires 1) other people to deny reality, 2) body modification, and 3) relies on and strengthens 'gender' stereotypes is, by definition, not authentic.

NB doesn't need body modification, though. It requires no action apart from the statement "I am NB", which carries with it the threat "and if you put a foot wrong about that, I can make your life a little hell for you".

Sorry, I should have specified that I was referring to the concept of an 'authentic self' that relates to anyone who identifies as trans or non-binary.

Plus, every female person I know of IRL who identifies as NB has had a double mastectomy, so people who identify that way can want body modification.

ETA- this was in reply to Asking. I do accept that not everyone who identifies as NB wants to alter their body.

That's so sad.

The truth is that humans cannot change sex and what you are pushing in your nasty, aggressive posts is a harmful ideology.

(Incidentally, being categorised as 'not cis male' is the sole experience all women - cis, trans or nb but female presenting - have in common. It's not babies, periods or feelings - it's fear of misogynistic male violence.)

You are incorrect. Some women, who enjoy the privileges of money and a decent husband, will deny routinely fearing male violence. Those women are arguably naive, but nonetheless they exist. Trans-identifying males are statistically the safest demographic in the UK. They do not have cause to fear male violence to anything like the extent that women, or even other men, do.

The universal female experience is that we cannot make someone else pregnant, by force or their consent. We cannot weaponise someone else's fear of forced pregnancy to terrorise them. And it is possible to tell, on sight, that we lack that capability. The universal male experience is that no man ever fears pregnancy, so no man can be terrorised in this way, not even by other men.

That sexed difference between men and women, immediately visible to any onlooker, is at the heart of all misogyny.

No amount of pretending that your vulnerable, probably autistic, gender non-conforming daughter is a boy will protect her from that reality. It's cruel to encourage her to think that she can become a man.

One of my family has severe LD & he can grasp the concept that some people are trans, so please don't give me that ridiculous, ableist excuse for lack of respect.

I can grasp that some people identify as trans. What I cannot do is lie, to the point that I lose the capacity to speak. Lying is a fundamentally disrespectful act, so I have no idea how you can have the brass neck to pretend that it's somehow respectful to do so about a person's sex.

Your ignorance about and denial of the impact of selective mutism is the only ableism on this thread.

But I grew up baffled by the concept of male and female, and never felt I fitted the word 'female'.

You seem to be confusing sex and gender. Female is a sex and it fits you if you have a female body. You say you have children. If you have given birth to children you know you have a female body, so of course you are female.

And you can't be that baffled by the concept of male and female since you obviously knew what you and your male sexual partner needed to do in order to have children.

You can't just opt out of your sex, it's not a choice.

Perhaps you mean that you don't think of yourself as particularly feminine. You have that in common with large numbers of other women, and most of us don't feel the need to give ourselves special labels (or pronouns) or make announcements about it.

Feminine and masculine are genders. Everyone is free to be as masculine or as feminine as they want.

Female and male are sexes. You can't choose or change your sex.

How do you think any old bloke putting on a dress is anything other than “visible”? Or do you mean he could technically “dress as a trans woman” making zero effort whatsoever to look like a “woman”? Do keep going, it’s great.

No, the definition of female is not “being afraid of misogynistic male violence” 🙄 so you can shoehorn some men you want to include. It’s a person of the sex which is typically (ie if all is healthy and during that person’s fertile years) the producer of large gametes. As opposed to the male sex which is typically etc the producer of small gametes.

You clearly do have an issue with being polite, as you're not willing to extend consideration to people who have different needs to you if it means going against your political position. The kinds of neurodivergence that you are familiar with aren't the only ones that are relevant here, and using a specific person with learning difficulties that you know doesn't override the impact of your unreasonable expectations on people with other cognitive difficulties, you're just using them as cover for your own ableism, in a similar manner to someone who says "I have a black friend and they don't mind" when told they've done something racist. Repeatedly wanging on about how respect costs absolutely nothing just shows how self-centred you're being, as you still refuse to consider the mental load you're requiring of people, even when posters have shown you examples such as the Stroop Effect, that demonstrate how trying to override automatic recognition processes slows our capacity to complete cognitive tasks.

Cheers, I know exactly the difference between sex, gender and sexuality.

Having a trans son who is far more trad 'feminine' than me has been quite the eye-opener, even if I hadn't had a lifetime of being gnc 😁

Being trans or non-binary is just something you are. I do wish transphobic people calling trans women 'blokes in dresses' would understand how reductive that is - because it only adds to their dysphoria & pushes them towards surgery.

Trans boys stop binding at home when they are accepted & respected.

Seriously, why are you all fixated on trans people? They're just normal.

Well sex hasn't evolved. It's still binary.

I do wish transphobic people calling trans women 'blokes in dresses' would understand how reductive that is

It’s the truth, and more truth - not less - is what we need, to cut through the lies and obfuscations foisted on us.

are you saying there’s something wrong with being a man who wears a dress?