Captain’s Bar, Edinburgh

[AccidentallyWesAnderson]

Probably need to wait for the image to be approved but someone has left a recent review, Carol Anne, four days ago complaining of men using the women’s toilet.

Does the ‘legally-binding Global Human Rights Policy and Code of Non-discrimination, which prohibit discrimination based on gender, sexual orientation, and other protected characteristics’ allow them to mark a single use women’s toilet as ‘women’, yet continue to let males use it? Lovely to note GC women (those that don’t live in fantasy land) aren’t welcome in their parting shot.

If you asked the mothers for advice on if you should send your 7/8 year old girl into a mixed sex toilet block (which has men hopping in and out) the assorted parents¹ are highly unlikely to advise that you should let her go in unsupervised.

Its not a trans issue its a man in a space he should not enter. A Social Contract issue and the resulting safeguarding issue.

¹ you are likely to get a stronger rejection reply for the fathers but have to take account of sex bias of most men not wanting to be seen to be ok with being alone in a private lockable room with your semi naked 7/8 year old girl.

So are guide dogs. Wheelchair access. Racism.

I wouldn't shrug and say 'I'm all right Jack' if their legal rights and access to society was under threat. But you do you. No one's making you read FWR. Do you pop onto the cat thread and mention that you don't have a cat and no one you know likes them?

The indifference of the masses changes nothing, if they don't care about 'trans' issues, they won't care about women's right's issues either, so there's no reason for us to stop fighting for our right's to be returned to us.

We're not doing it because it's the popular thing to do, we doing because it's important and it needs to be done, where the general public realise it or not.

Since non-GC = believes in genderwoo, transwomen are women and women don't need/derserve single sex anything, I don't care what they think of me, or any of the GC feminists on this board.

If I spoke about this issue tomorrow morning at the school gate, the assorted parents would look at me like I was nuts and change the subject to swimming lessons, the weekend's party, or that day's lunch menu.

Isn't that rather because most of them know that this is an issue where one wrong word can get you ostracised? So much safer to pretend ignorance or not caring than risk being cast out, especially in a school setting where it can affect you children and their peers groups too. Much safer to talk about swimming.

Thats maybe not a great test. You’d probably get a similar reaction talking about politics, religion or money - they’re controversial so women frequently avoid those topics in situations like the school gate. Im not sure that confirms that they’re not important to people in general

What it confirms is that if it's a topic in this category then it's absolutely unethical for any state funded provider (including schools, council gyms etc) to take a stance one way or the other. As with other topics that can't be discussed, they should provide their services in such a way that those who strongly believe that mixed-sex facilities are fine should have a way to practice that and those who believe strongly in the validity and rightness of maintaining single sex facilities should have a way to practice that. You wouldn't get a state-funded school, or council funded gym, run in such a way that only people of one particular political view was included, and even church schools (which are allowed to have faith-based criteria but please don't derail this thread by arguing about that - can be done on a different thread) have critea so that followers of other religions still qualify (eg you can still qualify for a faith place with regular attendance at a synagogue or mosque) and don't prevent followers of other faiths from living as they believe.

Yes but then it is a unisex toilet and should be marked as such. Lots of small cafes etc have just one loo. Forewarned is forearmed.

If it's a single-user cubicle, what difference does it make whether the previous occupant was male or female? What does anyone need forewarning/forearming for when waiting in a public area for your turn to use a single-user facility? What would be different if everyone worked on the assumption that any single-user facility is intrinsically unisex, no matter what the label says?

I once worked at a university where a corridor that had previously been student accommodation had been converted to office space for our department. Along the corridor were 2 single-user WC cubicles one of which was labelled for men and one for women. As it happened there were only 2 men who worked in that corridor, and 12 women, and we universally agreed that there was no harm whatsoever in the women using the one labelled men if the women's was occupied. This was long before any TRA campaigning, it was just common sense.

These aren’t single user cubicles. So it matters.

A workplace is covered by workplace regulations so the women in your example were possibly exposing your employer to a legal claim even if you all agreed it was ok. A new employee might not have agreed.

A workplace is usually different in relation to risk compared to where service users have been taking alcohol. Although that depends on your workplace - you’ve got to forget about the people you knew and your work and then think about the creepiest/scariest colleague that gives you the ick and leaves the toilet in a hideous state, way down in an isolated part of the building far from anyone. Because the rules are there to protect the people in those difficult situations with difficult people - not the vast majority who are perfectly nice

Yes there is safety element in this in that it will be checked regularly and used frequently. It may be more on view. People would be more likely to notice if the room had been locked and occupied for an hour or if a man went in with a child, or a woman was pushed back in to the room when existing.

I could not disagree more. We have sex-separated spaces by law, for well-established reasons which I shouldn't really have to enumerate.

It's not just "ooh 50/50 opinions may vary, could go either way" like what's your favourite flavour of crisps (if it's not Cheese n Onion you are wrong).

Many men don't lift the seat and then piss all over it. They don't clean it up. They leave it for the next person (me) who has to clean it up or find another toilet. I've never seen women leave such mess as men do. Disgusting, why should I have to clean up the piss of random men?

This is the problem b‘cause I think they are referring to normal ladies toilets with multi cubicles but claiming each stall is single use because it has a lock and a door: This is actually the problem

yeah ok that is a problem. A reasonable "single user" facility has floor-to-ceiling barriers and no gaps. A cubicle ain't it.

I hate going to small cafes and it's a single toilet to share as more often than not the man who has used it before me has left an almighty stink and/or pished all over the seat. I'm usually with a small child so it's never great. This bar are being ridiculous with their "inclusive" but actually exclusive attitude.

Given the comments about GC on the review, if Carol Ann went to the Free Speech Union she would probably get a couple of grand in damages. That might encourage the landlady to follow the actual law rather than those global rights. Do Scottish licensing laws insist on single sex toilets or has that been captured too?

I dont agree with shared facilities if there are a few toilets. But this is one toilet with a lockable door. The pubs attitude is annoying but I cant see any danger in this case. Some places only have one toilet. Not usually pubs though.

This is many people’s argument that the toilet itself is self contained and that if there are multiple cubicles in a self contained room they can be mixed sex. I don’t believe the is is right. The mixed sex toilets should be a self contained room with the door from a corridor like a plane or cafe. Not a self contained stall within another room like a multi use toilets.

I went restaurant toilet recently (which was downstairs and along a corridor) where it looked like a normal ladies loo with around 8 stalls.
While I was in the stall I heard an obvious male cough outside my stall door.
I literally froze and slightly panicked.
I realised, whilst I had my trousers round my ankles, it was just a small flimsy door between me and an unknown male and the door could be opened from the outside.
It was also just me and him in the multi use toilets.

When I nervously went to wash my hands he was also washing his and he looked super awkward and I started to realise he felt as uncomfortable as me. Albeit not threatened.

it turned out that it was a mixed sex bathroom and as it was dark in a basement and the waiter pointed to where the loos were for me I had literally no idea I might encounter a male in there. But the situation would be the same even if I had known. It was the only toilets.

This is just one experience I have had recently where I have felt very uncomfortable and actually involuntary froze as a natural reaction to realizing it was just me and an unknown male in an enclosed room/toilets.

The opportunity for a drunk or simply a male opportunist to assault a woman in this situation is huge if he so wanted.

It was thinking about this opportunity aspect and that made me realise why I felt so uncomfortable and why I froze. It was outrageous that I had been put unknowingly into a situation that I would never consent to.

I would never knowingly walk into an enclosed space down a corridor behind a door in a venue where alcohol is served and loud music is played. And I have since learned that some night clubs have also started mixed sex toilets and I know of at least one case in the paper where a boy saw the opportunity to push a girl back into the stall as she was leaving in a mixed sex loo and he locked the door pushing her inside and assaulted her.

Assaults can happen in single sex anyway I know but it massively increases the risk, especially with opportunists and where alcohol is served. Loud music so no can hear a thing.

Have you read the thread?

Its a pub

With drink taken do you think you would be more or less concerned if a man follows you into what you think is a female only single sex space?