How would you deal with T in a friendship group?

[FourSevenTwo]

How would you deal with T people around you? In general and in my situation?

The main question:
A male in a friendship group decided to go full TW, starting hormones and so on, changing name to the women's form and coming out with pronouns.

Unfortunately, our language is heavily gendered*. For example, instead of Hi Alex, you would say Hi Alexi for a man and Hi Alexo for a woman. If you want to say anything in past tense, like Where were you yesterday, you have to use men's or women's form for were.
This means it is not really possible to ignore it in direct interaction.

I'm not willing to pretend through language that I see him as a woman. I don't and won't. But I don't insist on calling him him. There are some not great alternatives (it, plural - with it's own verb forms, switching to English), but they are all very noticeable.

I'd like to find a solution for our coexistence in this friendship group. I'm not asking about a language solution here, more about an approach.

I'm considering

1. reaching him with a message, saying I've heard the news, and I can't affirm, but, I'd like to keep things civil, so is there some alternative we can agree on?

2. ingoring the issue and limiting communication on grammatically neutral constructions (which will be limiting and obvious after a time)

3. some other option?

To answer possible questions.

• I'm GC woman - in the adult human female sense, in the gender identity terminology I'd claim agender. I absolutely understand people are unhappy with gendered roles, I just don't believe that trying to become/pretend to be/claiming to be the other one is the solution. And I'm sure one can't change sex.

• It seems that majority of our shared friends are willing to be kind, some believe it, some just don't care, men with no skin in the game.

• *I'm elsewhere in EU, not a self-ID country. I don't ask about legal aspects, just personal approach. Discussing in my country's forums would be hard, as we are a small population.

• The group is about games, meeting at someone's home, so no issue with single sex spaces, and generally gender doesn't play a role in the group's activities.

• Yes, I'd like to try to keep the group if possible. I see it as a political topic and I don't need to discuss politics all the time.

• Edit to add : I've name changed for this one. Sorry it is long. And yay, I've managed to force the formatting to behave!

Oh joy!

someone speaking some sense

Do you say “Hello woman”?

Given your beliefs, go with option 1 and be prepared to lose the person’s friendship and potentially be excluded from the group, depending on how many others in the group share your views or genuinely support the friend.

Given that the point Cass essentially makes is that affirmation only pronouns may make it harder to desist I'm extremely reluctant to use wrong sex pronouns for trans identifying young adults especially any that may be autistic too.

The idea that it's about 'keeping the peace' also shouldn't have the onus on woman to comply. There's nothing stopping the trans person from just getting on with things. The whole point is the control. Pronouns are about control.

Language is all about control. That's Orwell's Entire Back catalogue. Control language and you control people. We should not be trying to control others. If you want to call yourself something crack on, but if you aren't that thing then no material reality wins and everyone else has the right not to be controlled. This is actually important. There are well being and identity issues that are NOT restricted to the individual who identifies as trans and it's about time we recognised this. This doesn't mean we don't like someone, it certainly doesn't mean we hate them, it just means we don't share their belief and that's ok to do.

Having been called all sorts of names and outrageous abuse for the mildest unintentional mistakes, frankly I gave up. It wasn't respectful. Trying my hardest at the time wasn't good enough. I quickly realised that whatever I did I would never do enough tbh. Part of the problem is realising I was the very thing they were and I was the focus of their internalised rage. In my brother particularly as we did look alike especially when we were much younger. It's a sibling jealousy that I could never satisfy and that it would always be taken out on me. Realising this was freeing - I think some mothers get this too for somehow producing the wrong sex. My mum was taken as the golden one instead who couldn't do anything wrong even if she slipped up (that was revealing too). DH was also singled out because he was the son that my brother never was and lives up to a lot of the gender stereotypes so again a focal point for internalised anger. We were the reminder of the thing that deep down my brother can never escape.

Now as a parent you may wish to had control to a child in order to help them but there are scenarios - anxiety being one - where it's inappropriate to do that even if it causes short term problems. There are potentially long term problems down the line too and I do think we need to have the discussion about avoidant behaviour and giving in to it in the context of autistic kids because it's highly relevant to the subject.

The second behaviour starts to lash out at others - and I include unreasonable tantrums about pronouns in this - you are into the realm of fight or flight classic anxiety behaviour and abusive behaviour. We need to identify and see for what it is and treat accordingly.

I genuinely don't have a problem with transpeople. What I have a problem with is a lack of respect for the oppose sex when it's intrusive, damaging and disrespectful.Treat me ok and I'll treat you ok. That means understanding why it's not appropriate to go into single sex spaces and why those spaces have been set up. It's not for validation.

If people are 'struggling' with their identity, how is this not a mental health issue?

But no one gets assigned a gender identity at birth. Midwives don’t go round saying …. “Oooh we’re low in demifemme grey genders so that’s what this one can be”

@Diverze Thanks for sharing your experience

I understand, that when your child wasn't able to walk (metaphorically speaking), if the gender identity crutch allows them to go out, you don't take it away.

Someone should study the mechanics which lead your DC to this belief and try using it to offer some other type of support, just to see whether it is more about the GI or about the community, explanation for non-belonging in the outer worlds and in the end belonging in the inner one.

Would you be ok if the list was:
Most T identities are about fetish, mental health issues or build around neurodiversity.

And the T identities holders divide into those who believe that it gives them right to demand things (language, access to single sex spaces) from others, and those who plan their lifes/have their lifes planned to not clash with the rights of others. (I consider the DC here disabled, and therefore qualified for accessible toilets).

I'm bookmarking this one to read again, it makes sense and is well put.

The ending makes me think - do I prefer to not talk about their understanding of implications of their identity, or do I want to know their position in this. I can't have it both ways.

(OK, maybe I can - starting with observation and it might become clear sooner than I would want to ...)

I just saw this pop up on twitter. Perhaps it will help people to sort through this issue of language more.

x.com/knownheretic/status/2016610772164759624?s=46

I would watch and wait and see what they do tbh.

In terms of language, I know of one young man who came out as trans. His language requests saw his relationship end very quickly after that.

He basically felt his other half should redefine her sexuality due to his identity change. A man can not be a lesbian and to demand that you are called a lesbian has a fairly obviously impact on lesbians and is bluntly just plain homophobic.

This is why I have real issues with the idea that you should use wrong sex pronouns to be respectful. It plainly isn't respectful to go around saying you are a lesbian when you are a male and I don't especially wish to be complicit in that.

If you use wrong sex pronouns to 'be respectful' to one person, are you really sure you are being respectful to someone else in your office? Or course that other person can hardly challenge you because of the fear that they will be accused of being transphobic - afterall you are presenting and signally yourself as pro-trans by being supportive of those pronouns. How are they to know that actually you feel under duress and actually disagree? Do you think you are creating a friendly environment for everyone? I think its grossly naive to assume at this point, given all these court cases, that you aren't contributing to a hostile environment for other people in the room. Do you know their sexuality and they political beliefs on this? I wouldn't assume them. I am increasingly having conversations with people I would have made different assumptions about their position and am being surprised by their responses.

Someone demanding you use pronouns under duress is by default effectively you to 'pick a team' and doing so without thought and consideration shows the real heirachy and power (and who is powerless). At no point do you ever get the opportunity to go "well actually this is a really deeply complex situation and subject that I don't necessarily feel it is appropriate to automatically go along with for a host of reasons which I think are perfectly valid and important and at the same time I dont wish to upset anyone" because someone is too busy screaming transphobe at you. Thats really not ok.

Have you had any difficulty with your (adult) child rejecting something fundamental about yourself? I'm probably autistic myself (undiagnosed so I'm cautious about this, but I have similarities!) and being told that my son is my daughter causes severe cognitive dissonance. I am the father of my son. I have managed to force myself to use his new feminine name sometimes, but I can't call him "her" or pretend he's my daughter. Trying to do so clogs up my thought processes and I can't communicate at all. Maybe being unable to speak intelligibly following a stroke is similar.

It's not mainly my son who demands compliance with gendered pronouns. It's other people, those who haven't realised the pain they're inflicting, or those who don't care, because only trans people matter.

Oh yes I see. Obviously English doesn't have any gendered grammar unless I'm missing something.

I was thinking about European languages that have one form. I find gender critics in that fascinating because the whole language is gendered!

It's like "I don't want to call a biological man she because they aren't male" and I'm like but you use feminine for bakeries and petrol stations...

Anyway this is a bit philosophical.

I can't remember who pointed out that the Spanish word for "non-binary" is gendered (maybe Helen Joyce?) So non-binary people are either non-binario (male) or non-binaria (female).

Good luck trying make it all make sense.

and I'm like but you use feminine for bakeries and petrol stations...

But you don't just switch for certain bakeries and petrol stations that think they're special.

I'm wondering now - how should it work in the other direction? What would be polite from the TW's side? Does they need to know about my beliefs to be able to behave politely to me? If yes, should they ask?

This question ^^ (how do you feel about me compelling your speech) never seems to occur to either the TW or to the trans supporters. And for trans supporters, they too like to jump aboard the control bandwagon. Possibly with the additional factor of forcing their validation.

I'm wondering now - how should it work in the other direction? What would be polite from the TW's side? Does they need to know about my beliefs to be able to behave politely to me? If yes, should they ask?

"I am trans. I appreciate that not everyone agrees with this but as long as you are civil, respectful and treat me like you'd treat anyone else that's fine. I understand that not everyone wants to use pronouns, I would appreciate it if they did but I understand if you don't. I will be using inclusive facilities not single sex provision"

It's really not that hard. I don't understand why it's made out like it is.

It's all about forcing validation and emotional vampiring. That's the entire problem.

THIS

I think it's really important to point out that prior to about 2015 this has been roughly
the approach of every trans person I've known or met.

This approach fosters tolerance and integration between people who have different beliefs. Is that not what we want for the world??!!

It also allows trans people space for a far higher degree of self acceptance and even pride in their own unique life journey than the current trans ideology narrative. It completely negates the requirement for the utterly cruel concept of "passing". Do we not wish good mental health for trans people as much as anyone else?

The posters who come here and insist that deception, coercion and language control are intrinsic to having a trans identity may view themselves as allies but do trans people no favours at all.

I don't think those who judge others for not wanting to use wrong sex language quite understand what they are judging. They keep making judgement claims about 'respect' and 'kindness'.

It really is all about power though. A person who requests (or demands) that people act as if that person's material reality is their material reality is actively asking others to prioritise a purely subjective reality. By doing so, they have exerted power over others. Some people might declare that this is not 'coercion' or 'power' but even a request is a form of coercion based on emotion and it is a form of power.

Why should anyone's subjective reality be treated by society or by any individual as being material and objective reality? In the long term, objective reality will abide. How can it not? And then how the fuck is the impact of that reassertion of objective reality on that person wanting others to support their subjective reality going to be supported?

Who is going to be able to trust anyone who has actively used female language for any male person? If someone was prepared to act as if that male person was in any way female, even with just using female language, how does this inspire trust in that person who then wants honest and accurate answers? It is a question that I cannot work through.

Yet apparently, it is respectful to allow a person to change the conventions of language and commonly understood meanings that another person uses. I am sure it makes some people feel comfortable and kind. But this dynamic is not one of respect.

@RedToothBrush @InconvenientlyMaterial

Yes. It's interesting how no-one from the be kind crowd calls for the GI believers to be polite and kind back.

Actually, thinking about it, I know several agender/nonbinary/non conforming women who do something in this direction. It just works naturally:

• Use male forms about themselves online
• Use male form about themselves in real life, not trying to look specifically feminine, but being female, using female spaces and not caring what grammar/pronouns others use
• Using female grammar, not trying to look specifically feminine, refusing stereotypes.
• A is nonbinary. It means A doesn't want to be called by words like "girl" or "woman". Any pronouns/grammar are ok in our language. Prefer "they" in English.

No problem in any of those cases.

@Helleofabore very well put, as usual.

A person who requests (or demands) that people act as if that person's material reality is their material reality is actively asking others to prioritise a purely subjective reality. By doing so, they have exerted power over others.

I am so sick of the fucking "be kind" mantra. This ideology is very unkind to me, and to many women, both in physical terms (sport, changing rooms, etc), and in our mental health when we are coerced into lying.

I think that some of those placate themselves with philosophical theories about how when someone who genuinely holds a belief about themselves that is that person’s ’authentic’ identity.

Where the fuckwittery comes in, in my opinion, is because that group’s identity demands took language and concepts and demanded those are changed to suit them. In my opinion, there is something narcissistic at worst or self aborbed at best, about that. That some people tie it into supporting mental health is, of course, deliberate. Because that way people who reject it are hateful, unkind and harming others.

This is a very interesting article which a PP referred to.

Pronouns are Rohypnol • Fair Play For Women https://share.google/JjGquN7zD8fezuiYA

This is why I find it very difficult to just go along with (that and the brain fog, and as another PP said, I value truth and accuracy).

Absolutely.

Even some posters here have framed those posters asking questions as 'aggressive' or instigating a pile on. It seems that even asking questions about a trans relative is considered beyond the pale, because it's acknowledging that the Emperor is naked, and that's just unacceptable to them. We must all maintain the fiction at all costs - anything else is hateful.

I can't agree.

It not kind to say that we should not join a political party and we should be shut out of all discussions about a subject because they don't want to talk about the difficult scenarios and how the law can only work if it actually has workable definitions...

Quite.

I cannot see how in 40 years time this era of authoritarianism around accepting this group of people as having an identity that requires validation via linguistic demands and policies to allow that identity to be prioritised in every other person in that organisations mind is going to be viewed.

Someone has an identity that makes them feel better but is based on the belief they are something they materially are not? Fine. They can do what they want to a point.

What no one should be coerced to do is act as if that identity is based on reality or to even observe that particular identity. I have not seen any other philosophical belief where anyone who doesn’t share that belief must also act like it is materially real under policy or law.

That we are in a situation where people have their jobs terminated or their organisational memberships terminated if they don’t comply to this group’s demand everyone act as if they believe that person’s identity is material reality is ludicrous. Yet, here we are. And apparently some people can completely detach their individual and uncoerced efforts from the overall collective effect on society.