How would you deal with T in a friendship group?

[FourSevenTwo]

How would you deal with T people around you? In general and in my situation?

The main question:
A male in a friendship group decided to go full TW, starting hormones and so on, changing name to the women's form and coming out with pronouns.

Unfortunately, our language is heavily gendered*. For example, instead of Hi Alex, you would say Hi Alexi for a man and Hi Alexo for a woman. If you want to say anything in past tense, like Where were you yesterday, you have to use men's or women's form for were.
This means it is not really possible to ignore it in direct interaction.

I'm not willing to pretend through language that I see him as a woman. I don't and won't. But I don't insist on calling him him. There are some not great alternatives (it, plural - with it's own verb forms, switching to English), but they are all very noticeable.

I'd like to find a solution for our coexistence in this friendship group. I'm not asking about a language solution here, more about an approach.

I'm considering

1. reaching him with a message, saying I've heard the news, and I can't affirm, but, I'd like to keep things civil, so is there some alternative we can agree on?

2. ingoring the issue and limiting communication on grammatically neutral constructions (which will be limiting and obvious after a time)

3. some other option?

To answer possible questions.

• I'm GC woman - in the adult human female sense, in the gender identity terminology I'd claim agender. I absolutely understand people are unhappy with gendered roles, I just don't believe that trying to become/pretend to be/claiming to be the other one is the solution. And I'm sure one can't change sex.

• It seems that majority of our shared friends are willing to be kind, some believe it, some just don't care, men with no skin in the game.

• *I'm elsewhere in EU, not a self-ID country. I don't ask about legal aspects, just personal approach. Discussing in my country's forums would be hard, as we are a small population.

• The group is about games, meeting at someone's home, so no issue with single sex spaces, and generally gender doesn't play a role in the group's activities.

• Yes, I'd like to try to keep the group if possible. I see it as a political topic and I don't need to discuss politics all the time.

• Edit to add : I've name changed for this one. Sorry it is long. And yay, I've managed to force the formatting to behave!

Well, as a PP said, it's all very 'cutted up pear'.

It seems stating factually that only males have ever peed with a willy as children, is now deemed wild and perverted.

Cos this suits the agenda of adult males desperate to get access to female only spaces.

"It's not really a willy. I have never had a willy. I have female biology."

"When I have my willy chopped off I will be in my true natural state especially since I have taken these synthetic man made hormones."

"This is a completely female experience. I have never had a male experience."

Writing it's all done in ordinary language without all this psuedo woo really does show up it's problematic nature. Except of course writing it down like this, is apparently creepy and makes me a weirdo.

The answer is still no.

"Fully"? What does that mean?

There was a transwoman on some telly panel proudly announcing he'd had "everything" done and of course you couldn't see what was under the table but he definitely hadn't tried facial feminisation. So who decides what is "everything" or "fully"? Medicine can do a lot of damage to a male body but it can't turn a male body into a female one.

I could take a sewing machine mechanism and put in inside a case, hang a pendulum from it and stick a clock face on the front and at first glance it might look like a grandfather clock but do you know what? It's not a clock and it wont tell the time. A broken clock can't tell the time either but it has the same internal structure as other clocks. Even a broken clock is still a clock not a sewing machine.

Science can't rebuild a male body into a female one either, not with surgery and not with hormones. It can make a few surface changes and that's all. The differences between men and women are more than surface, they are both functional and structural. Men and women are both human so a lot of the structures and functions are very similar but where they are different they really are different all the way through.

Indeed, Red.

As I said earlier upthread, if we took the time to rewrite many of these posts using clear, factually accurate language, there would be little confusion as to what the issues are.

Instead, we have had pages of posts aimed at convincing women that male people are female people using most of the tactics that we have seen over and over. Even a version of 'only a few'.

The outcome though can only be the same. That is that no male person will ever be a female person and that female people have a legitimate need for female single sex spaces that exclude all male people over the age of about 8 years old.

The stupid thing is, is that the women that extreme trans ideology believers (which is not all trans people) are so against - ie feminists - would be amongst the first to be allies with non conforming men and men who struggle to find their place in our gendered world.

But extreme trans ideology doesn't want to join feminists to fight gender stereotyping. Instead it wants to reify regressive gender stereotypes; only acknowledging their oppressive nature when that oppression can be appropriated or used as leverage. Basic patriarchal behaviour.

Men often tell us they see our oppression and yet will override our boundaries anyway. It's nothing new. It's been the modus operandi of men for time. It's a fucking patriarchal world, dude. We get it. You'll do whatever you want.

But just know, that even if it becomes illegal to speak our "NO" we feel it and think it inside. And women always have, and always will, find ways to speak amongst themselves.

This thread started with the OP wondering how to navigate social situations with a TIM. The early part of the thread was thoughtful and considerate around how to navigate this and tried to assume that the TIM would also be thoughtful and considerate. And then….. a real life display of what happens when the thought and consideration is entirely absent from TIMs in this scenario.

to the FWR regulars engaging with this drivel, I know why you bother and hats off to your patience.

"I have fully transitioned physically."

Hang on!! have we reached that utopian Star Trek era where humans can be reduced to sub atomic particles and restructured how they wish to be? Does the effect last???? Or do people have to go through the process every day?

It seems that women talking about transwomen's penises makes transwomen uncomfortable.

There's no thought as to how transwomen's penises make women feel uncomfortable...

I'm going to talk about the penises because we don't want penis people or depenised people defining the life and experiences of uterushavers or uterusshouldhavers or uterushadders.

This is a thread about language and why language matters. So we should cover this.

And since legally we are not allowed to discriminate against transwomen with penises and quite rightly we can't check whether they are in a bepenised state or a non penised state we have no option but to state all transwomen equally regardless of their penis or now lack of penis, regardless of how much extreme body modification they've had, regardless of whether they have a beard OR not should be treated the same.

As males. Not females. Otherwise any male can claim to be a transwoman.

I'm sorry if this is a problem for you, but it's not for women to work out and accommodate. There are consequences for us in not accurately identifying sex. There are consequences for transwomen in not accurately identifying sex.

Besides this we need to acknowledge that women can and do notice transwomen to a greater extent than they are willing and feel able to verbally or visually acknowledge. This is because they do not feel they have the power nor feel safe to talk about this. They often are denied the language to do this due to authoritarian 'training' designed to intimidate and silence and to stop their use of language.

It goes back to legal definitions and workable law. To consequences and unintended harms to women if we do not accurately tackle this with sometimes blunt language.

The blunt language is jarring precisely because it is so hard to counterargue back with.

Also.... How many women here are mothers of sons? Many of whom will be gay, non conforming, short, skinny, additional needs etc.

As they grow up, we transition them to using the male facilities from around 8 years old. 8, when they still believe in father Christmas and are often pretty small.

The idea that a grown arsed adult male who doesn't outwardly conform to every male stereotype is unable to use male facilities is laughable.

This is very true.

Men are still men regardless of whether they have had their penis surgically removed or blown off by a roadside bomb whilst on deployment.

I find it instructive.

I don't speak to my brother. This makes me mean apparently according to the be kind crew.

I actually like to give the benefit of the doubt first and see how things develop. I don't assume it's always like this. I'm actually prepared to put up with a degree of sexism to a point as no one is perfect. I put up with some sexism from men I otherwise like. It's no different to that.

However.

I think when we have demonstrations like this, women who are on the fence and may have previously judged me, start to go "shit is this for real? Is this the level of demand and level of expectation there is from transwomen about how far actual women are supposed to suppress their own lived and shared experiences".

And sadly yes this is how far some push it and this is how disrespectful it can get and yes it's important to see it laid out bare.

And no women should not have to put up with it and accommodate it to this extent.

In answer to the OP. It's always ok to say No if the demanding becomes unreasonable. Regardless of however anyone identifies...

I guess it must be rather frustrating though when a surgeon has misled you into believing being castrated will make you a woman and then woman say no!

It is certainly a clear example of how far a man will go if women are coerced into playing his game,

But why is it for women to pretend the surgeon didn't perform the surgery without ensuring that the patient was fully informed and therefore fully consented? Why is for women to pretend this surgeon operated ethically? Why do women have to support misinformation and malpractice and prevent the surgeon from getting their arse sued off?

Women don’t need to do that, anymore that we have to hand over our house to strangers because a fraudsters has posted it on Airbnb. We are entitled to say simply ‘no!’.

You’d know more than any woman what men are like though wouldn’t you? It takes one to know one as my grandma always said.

Feminism doesn't say gender doesn't exist.

Feminism absolutely recognises gender. It's a critical Feminist insight.

The Feminist understanding of gender is based on women's lived experience of knowing that one is a woman (in the original sex based meaning) and yet many of society's "truths" about womanhood in terms of aptitudes, preferences and drivers do not apply to one.

To a Feminist, gender exists and affects our lives through our own and others expectations and assumptions. It's not a natural difference (Feminists, being a bunch of individuals with differing perspectives on the core issue of female empowerment, do not hold the same view as to whether there are some elements that are natural), it is a social construct that limits both men and women and one of the primary social mechanisms through which structural and personal sexism is produced and enforced.

So when a Feminist says "that is such a male posting style" she is not saying "you are trapped forever by your sex and I will dismiss you forever because of it", she is trying to raise your consciousness about gendered behaviour you may not be aware of so you can free yourself from it, just as we try to free ourselves from the unseen gender shackles we live within.

This is a good point - and I find it informative that some matters are being swept aside as 'inappropriate' when what is being discussed is the reality of biology.

Those of us who are women and who went through the experience of being a girl understand the angst of going through puberty, of getting used to having periods, of comparing starting dates for periods and so on with our friends.

That's one of the ways we got through that time - by discussing these things. Of course, only girls and women are really aware of that.

In the days before period products were made readily available in Scottish high schools, if someone was 'caught out' as a youngster, if their pals couldn't help them then they'd turn to one of the older girls at school for help - or failing that, one of the women teachers.

Men really cannot understand all this though I've seen some on the internet trying to fetishise and therefore shame this.

It's actually something that girls discuss a great deal in terms of "Have you started yet?" or "How do you cope with....?" and "What do you use for...?"

If you're a boy, then you really can't understand all that in the same way that girls cannot understand what it is to be an adolescent boy.

I think it is important for women to see how these arguments are used.

I also think, like others, that it is vital that women understand that all these posts have been to convince women and girls to not say 'no' to a group of male people.

What those male people have ignored or never realised, is that all they are doing is showing that they are determined to ignore female people's consent.

That by trying to find any way to change a female person's 'no' to a 'yes' is a consent issue when it comes to male people using female single sex provisions.

There is a name for that type of behaviour. For attempting to convince people to change consent from no to yes. And for wanting people to have lower personal boundaries so that their behaviour becomes acceptable. Don't forget, they are also sometimes the very same ones who end up convincing children to have low boundaries about their bodies and what they allow in behaviour around them.

Partly, it is because they themselves do not have boundaries.

There is also a descriptive label for when male people believe that they are experiencing female body processes that they can never experience, but will grasp on to some symptoms to justify describing their experiences as being those of having a female body process.

I think it is really important that women see these behaviours so they can recognise them.

It is partly why using euphemisms, using softened language that can be open to interpretation as to what it means or the severity of what the word is describing is demanded. Not only demanded by those male people who need to feel comfortable about claiming to be female people when they are not, but the people who support them.

So is a man claiming to be a woman. In fact that’s worse. Any male claiming to “feel one a woman” can only go by his version of what a woman is. Therefore both sexist and misogynistic. So you are literally demonstrating misogyny in real time

I think there is a fundamental difference to how men and women think about our genitals. For women it is closely tied to reproduction and reproductive function and all the messy bodily functions that go with that - periods, pregnancy, pelvic floor, cervical smears, contraception etc. Sexual activity is really secondary.

For men it is just about having sex.

You could have chosen (could still choose with the deployment of honesty, empathy and listening) to stand with women. To be a feminist ally.

But allies don't attempt to take over a rights movement, redefine its terms, and appropriate it for their own ends. To paraphrase, "you ain't no feminist, luv ".

For boys - based on my experience as a high school teacher - it also includes being rather competitive about certain matters, such as who can pee highest up the wall in the boys' toilets.

1. They'd discuss it openly.

2. I was a middle manager, and I had the head cleaner asking me if I could raise the problem with the HT.

We should also talk about Orwell and Arendt in the context of the thread and for any one who hasn't seen such demonstrations of language and control.

Both are LEFT WING observers of both left and right wing authoritarianism.

This is an AI summary of Arendt's teachings.

For Hannah Arendt, the power of language is foundational to politics, freedom, and the creation of a shared human world. She believed that power is not something one possesses, but something that arises when people "act in concert," which is made possible solely through speech and action. For Arendt, language is the primary medium for disclosing reality and the unique identities of individuals.

Key aspects of Hannah Arendt’s view on the power of language include:
Speech as Political Action: Arendt argues that true power is communication, not coercion or control. Politics, for her, is defined by speaking and acting in public, which allows people to appear to one another as unique individuals.

"Word and Deed" Connection: Power is actualized only when words are not empty and deeds are not brutal; in other words, when language is used to disclose reality rather than to conceal intentions. Without speech, action becomes mere violence or "meaningless" behavior.

Building a Common World: Language allows for a shared, objective world to emerge from the diverse perspectives of a pluralistic society. Through dialogue, people create a "public space of appearance" that exists between them.

The Power of Narrative: An experience only fully becomes real when it is spoken or told. She highlighted the capacity of narrative to link past, present, and future, which is crucial for building a collective identity and political power.

Against Manipulation and Totalitarianism: Arendt strongly opposed the use of language as a tool for manipulation, which she saw as a precursor to violence. In her analysis of totalitarianism, she noted how "language rules"—softened, bureaucratic codes—are used to hide the reality of atrocities, replacing genuine communication with empty, violent phrases.

Thinking and Judgment: The power of language is linked to the human capacities for thought and judgment. Talking with others about topics like justice can make individuals more just, fostering a thoughtful, rather than thoughtless, political life.

It's a good general summary of why language matters. There's plenty of quotes and passages I could quote from her which illustrate the above.

Orwell obviously sums it up with How many fingers and is critical of the Authoritarian British Leftist thinking. Not Nazis.