How would you deal with T in a friendship group?

[FourSevenTwo]

How would you deal with T people around you? In general and in my situation?

The main question:
A male in a friendship group decided to go full TW, starting hormones and so on, changing name to the women's form and coming out with pronouns.

Unfortunately, our language is heavily gendered*. For example, instead of Hi Alex, you would say Hi Alexi for a man and Hi Alexo for a woman. If you want to say anything in past tense, like Where were you yesterday, you have to use men's or women's form for were.
This means it is not really possible to ignore it in direct interaction.

I'm not willing to pretend through language that I see him as a woman. I don't and won't. But I don't insist on calling him him. There are some not great alternatives (it, plural - with it's own verb forms, switching to English), but they are all very noticeable.

I'd like to find a solution for our coexistence in this friendship group. I'm not asking about a language solution here, more about an approach.

I'm considering

1. reaching him with a message, saying I've heard the news, and I can't affirm, but, I'd like to keep things civil, so is there some alternative we can agree on?

2. ingoring the issue and limiting communication on grammatically neutral constructions (which will be limiting and obvious after a time)

3. some other option?

To answer possible questions.

• I'm GC woman - in the adult human female sense, in the gender identity terminology I'd claim agender. I absolutely understand people are unhappy with gendered roles, I just don't believe that trying to become/pretend to be/claiming to be the other one is the solution. And I'm sure one can't change sex.

• It seems that majority of our shared friends are willing to be kind, some believe it, some just don't care, men with no skin in the game.

• *I'm elsewhere in EU, not a self-ID country. I don't ask about legal aspects, just personal approach. Discussing in my country's forums would be hard, as we are a small population.

• The group is about games, meeting at someone's home, so no issue with single sex spaces, and generally gender doesn't play a role in the group's activities.

• Yes, I'd like to try to keep the group if possible. I see it as a political topic and I don't need to discuss politics all the time.

• Edit to add : I've name changed for this one. Sorry it is long. And yay, I've managed to force the formatting to behave!

Charles IV of France "knew" he was made of glass.
He was wrong, as are you.

Oh love. "My brain just knows it" is not an argument that holds much weight with women.

The stalking man "just knows" she really enjoys his attention.

The abusive man "just knows" his wife disrespects him and needs to be shown who is boss.

The jealous man "just knows" he can't trust his girlfriend and he needs to keep her close by.

The sexist man "just knows" women aren't as capable as men.

Given how many men's brains over the years we have met who "just know" all sort of things about women that are so far from our reality, it is comical (when it's not chilling, terrifying or just fucking depressing).

What do women "just know"? We know that far too many men (and as per my post above, women too) do not see us at all, they only see what they expect to see. They project their own sexism onto us and then think they are seeing a truth that confirms their prejudices.

A detailed reply, and that is sweet to have genuinely answered me as usually it's something that's entirely ignored. I don't agree, however.

Society is sexist, yes I agree with this. I was never socialised as a male and was generally not socialised as anything until I transitioned and was quickly socialised as a woman by my family and friends so I do understand a lot of what you're saying.

But it kind of misses the point. This would explain why some women align themselves with patriarchy and things that are pushed by men. But transsexualism isn't something that's pushed by men. Either way whether you accept or reject trans identities it's still made up of about half men and half women.

You say that women align themselves with power. I mean, the entire media is against transsexuals, most of the main political parties are, most of the rich and powerful are, most men are, etc. Transsexualism is not a powerful movement at all. The women aligning themselves with power would be those opposing transsexualism, no?

Frankly I'd argue that transsexualism is one of the most anti-patriarchal things there is. It is explicitly rejecting what patriarchy wants us to be. Patriarchy wanted me to be a man. I just wasn't a man and rejected patriarchy. For transsexuals and transgenders we see ourselves as the ultimate patriarchy destroyers. I don't see myself as a woman because of the colour pink, dresses, skirts, makeup, etc. I see myself as a woman because female sex characteristics feel normal, and male sex characteristics feel like torture. I don't care what I wear and frankly I think that only further helps smash the patriarchy and gender stereotypes.

On your point on denial, sadly transsexual women experience much of, but if course not all of, the same. Transsexual women are frequently seen as a fetish by men. There are men literally called chasers and transsexuals are still one of the top porn categories. Men see us as disposable things they can use and hide. Too many of us have dated a man and been his "little secret". And what can we do? We're physically weaker too. Oestrogen has made me significantly weaker.

So whilst I do get your points, I still see a lot of commonality. Transsexual women go through much of the same as biological women. I think the stories that all women can tell about how the patriarchy has affected them are really important. Both biological and transsexual women are deeply harmed by men, and by the patriarchy and I wish we could come together as one and finally destroy the patriarchy once and for all rather than this infighting which only reinforces mens power and control.

Jesus. Comparing someone's identity to a sexual predator is appalling. Shame on you. Shame on you for making light of men's awful crimes against women.

Utterly vile.

That's probably because you're not a transsexual?

Transsexual women aren't male bodied after Sex Reassignment Surgery and HRT.

I have a female body now.

You lie to yourself.

No, you don't. You have a cosmetically altered male body.

You are the patriarchy.

If breaking down gendered stereotypes is the patriarchy then so is literally every feminist in history.

Looks female to me and to anyone else that's seen it

You are a male person. You will never be female.

Human beings cannot change sex.

If that's what you think you're doing, you're on another planet.

A male who says he is female is not 'breaking down gendered stereotypes'.

And it was so nice, respectful and useful discussion on the first ten or so pages.
And then two Ts came to preach about their experience and their truth, which -if what they are saying is true - is largely irrelevant to my question.

Thanks everyone who added something relevant!

I was pondering asking you to not feed the Ts, but I got what I needed from this thread, so it can as well turn into whatever it will.

I suppose I should backup the most inspiring posts though, just in case someone manages to get this shut...

That's a trite story that shows you understand nothing about the reality of being female for the majority of women in history.

And again, by claiming your idea of "womanhood" somehow has any relationship to this beyond the name you appropriate to label your own sexist projections, you are not increasing the diversity of womanhood one iota. Those of us who already are women, women before you changed what the word means, already had all diversity we have within our sex. What you are doing is reduxing us to things that can also be achieved by a male person such as yourself. The only people this supposed "opening up" of womanhood really benefits are the male people it gives new access to.

You don't seem to have caught on to the difference between being gay and being trans. Let's try again. (And thanks for engaging so far, btw.)

"I feel attracted to men because I just do, I feel like a woman because I just do." Yes, that's fine. If you sincerely say you feel such-and-such, then you do feel as you describe. But, even given that, the cases are different.

-- Why so? Well, to feel attracted is to be attracted: that's because of what it is to be attracted, what it means to be attracted - it's a kind of feeling. But (once again) ... to feel you're a woman is not what it is to be a woman; that's not what 'woman' means at all. And, if you're a man, you can't be, or become, a woman.

Feeling is no guarantee in this latter case, any more than it would be in the case in which someone sincerely felt he was cool, or smart or, for that matter, someone who sincerely felt he was a reincarnation of Elvis, or Napoleon. But in the case of someone who sincerely felt he was same-sex-attracted, the feeling guarantees the truth of the claim ... on account of the meaning of 'attraction'.

So, once again, for emphasis: if a man sincerely says he's gay, he must (logically, if you like) be telling the truth. But if a man, sincerely or otherwise, says he's a woman, he cannot be telling the truth.

Do you see now?

Sadly (I am sad about this, truly), you need to consider the possibility that what you think you know about what sex you are is a mistake. That's going to be very difficult for you. But, unfortunately, you need to accept (what I'm sure you know to be the case) that strength of belief is no guarantee of truth. (Of course it's not possible to know (even capitalised-"Know") something false.)

Really? How are those eggs/uterus/periods coming along then?

A decrease in muscle mass in male people who have been prescribed exogenous estrogen has been disputed by those who have followed the evidence. Not only that, but it has also been found in modelling based on other studies that the decrease can be prevented or reversed with training.

So.... if you want people to 'listen to how HRT decreases muscle mass in male people with transgender identities' that will not likely happen as it is another subjective reality. Perhaps you should start by giving accurate information, like this study below.

LONG TERM STUDY ON ADVANTAGES BY MALE ATHLETES ON OESTROGEN THERAPY

The Brazilian study.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2022/09/01/bjsports-2021-105400.info

Cardiopulmonary capacity and muscle strength in transgender women on long-term gender-affirming hormone therapy: a cross-sectional study

Leonardo Azevedo Mobilia Alvares, Marcelo Rodrigues Santos, Francis Ribeiro Souza, Lívia Marcela Santos, Berenice Bilharinho de Mendonça, Elaine Maria Frade Costa, Maria Janieire Nazaré Nunes Alves, Sorahia Domenice

Conclusion

In this small cohort of non-athlete TW, who were previously exposed to male pubertal development and underwent long-term oestrogen therapy, we identified higher grip strength and VO2 peak levels than in non-athlete CW, but these same parameters were lower compared with non-athlete CM.

These findings add new insights to the sparse information available on a highly controversial topic about the participation of TW in physical activities. Future studies involving transgender athletes that account for and quantify variable exposure times to pubertal development and assess muscle cell metabolism are needed to elucidate the effects of long-term GAHT on TW sports performance.

And from Ross Tucker on this study

From Ross Tucker on this study above:

Over a decade (14.4 yrs average) of T-suppression, and TW have VO2max 20% higher, grip strength 19% higher & skeletal mass 40% than women. More evidence that male biology persists long after T is removed. Another piece of the same puzzle, albeit from a cross-sectional study.

The cross-sectional bit is important - the study hasn't (like over a dozen others) tracked people from Day zero onwards, so the differences are a 'snapshot' rather than a 'movie', if that makes sense? Means you don't know how those TW began, 14.4 yrs earlier, but the finding of quite large differences compared to women (20% or more) is striking, because a) they either began as typically representative of males, and lost some, but retained significant advantages vs women, or b) they began well below men, and lost hardly any advantages. In either case, the end point, over a decade later, is biological differences compared to women that will create performance implications. Of interest, the mass retention and VO2max advantage mean that relative VO2max (ml/kg/min) ends up similar, which means in some sports (weight-determined) the performance implication may differ - sometimes very large, sometimes smaller, as in some categories within endurance sports.

You have a male body with body mods, that's all. Erik Sprague, who had his tongue split, his teeth sharpened, brow implants inserted, & his body tattooed all over with scales hasn't become a lizard & you haven't become a woman.

Ive lived for years as a woman and I know what life is like as one. I don't care if you want to put womanhood into a box, Feminism was always about breaking the box and I intend to continue to smash the patriarchy whether you like it or not.

Being a woman is my daily reality, and until we destroy misogyny and sexism in society I will continue to suffer it's consequences like any woman. Unlike those who are anti transsexuals my feminism is focused on uplifting women, not breaking women down like those on this message board do.

I never said transsexuals had the same strength as women. Personally I'm opposed to transsexual women in women's sport.

I said transsexual women are weaker than men. Your study doesn't disprove that.

Have you seen this Mr Menno interview with a gay male detransitioner? He wishes that the people around him had not just gone along with and affirmed what he was doing. It's quite long but I would strongly recommend it because it gives some insight into the mind of a man who, for a while, thought he could become a woman. It might help your deliberations!

Not even all biological women get periods.