Looking at men differently now I know too much?

[clingfilmed]

In recent years I've seen so much in the news and online about men's abuse and violence towards women. A man who looks totally normal and pleasant and is perhaps in many ways a good man might still be going home and creating fake AI nudes of women he knows or watching extreme porn or abusing his wife or kids or using prostitutes or cam girls or has a fetish that degrades and dehumanises women or is a complete misogynist.

There is a post on the relationships board now where a married man is hoping that just because a mum of his sons friend has been friendly towards him she might fancy him and be up for it.

Then looking at many of the men I know day to day how they talk to and interact with their wives and families is depressing to see, almost like they don't care at all.

I know its not every man, I know some men who I do think are good. I do look back to the rose tinted days of my teens when I would idealise boys and think they were so amazing and now knowing what I do about general trends and some men in particular its quite a disappointment.

I think decent men exist.

They're out there.

But sifting through the dross to find them is the challenge of the age.

In that respect I don't envy young women at all. 🙁

This cane up in my Facebook and seems pertinent.

That doesn't mean that actual men are like that. Your body isn't designed for that much testosterone.
ETA. I don't mean that some men aren't like that, of course. But the idea that an adult woman taking testosterone in any way replicates the male experience is ludicrous and I'm surprised it is being listened to on this board, of all places. If a transwoman came on here and tried to explain menopause to people, there would be bloodshed.

Again: I only said that my experience with testosterone gave me an insight into the male experience regarding women. I never said that I am a man, nor that all men feel like me. It just so happens that my experience aligns exactly with the behaviour of so many men, which I don't think is a coincidence at all, hence why I shared my insight. Feel free to discard it.

They are like that though unless asexual. I wear sunglasses a lot and so I can sneakily check what men are looking at, they all check us out when they drive or walk past. Old young and everything inbetween. Like a predator checking out prey. When I became single I was approached by my friends quiet husbands, married neighbours, my exes best friend! They are all sexually driven. We just have to accept that. The Kate Bush song “running up that hill” is about if men and women could swap bodies for the day then we’d understand each other so much better.
Testosterone is responsible for so much.

My point is that your taking testosterone doesn't give you an insight into the 'male experience'. To be fair to you, my incredulity is less at you and more at the people who seem to think that it does, when those same people would scoff at the idea that an adult male taking oestrogen gives him insight into the 'female experience'. You are an adult female on testosterone, not an adult male.

That hasn't been my experience. I am an attractive woman but have never felt like 'prey' (except once, in one particular European city) I enjoy being attractive and male appreciation, although I do agree that some men take it too far, and of course some are predators. I don't think that you can blame testosterone for that, though. It is more socialisation.

Let's put it another way then: I have an insight into what it's like to have so much testosterone in one's body, an amount similar to men's. And it so happens to have highly similar consequences to the behaviour of many men.

I mean, it's not like testosterone is not already known to have a massive effect on men's sexual drive. I'm not inventing anything new here. I'm just saying, "Having as much testosterone as men gave me the same effects as what many men exhibit." That's it.

Also: I've shared my experience with a few trusted men. None of them went, "Whaaaat??" They knew exactly what I was talking about. But again, that's just my limited experience, and I present it as such.

Out of interest, I've heard other women who have taken testosterone say they were unable to cry whilst on it. Have you experienced this?

Furthermore I recall the transman who gave birth on camera ( a water birth). Can't recall name.....said they were "desperate to get back on the. 'T' " because the birth and the flood of hormones that followed had made them very emotional.Personally, thought this desperately sad, that they wanted to suppress the intense love and connection they felt for their newborn.

Though I do think it gives a good indication of some of the effects of testosterone.

Maybe, but just as I wouldn't listen to a transwoman on the effects oestrogen, I am not going to listen to a transman about testosterone. To be fair, a man on the thread earlier said something a bit similar, but even he can't speak for everyone. My point was really more that I don't think that this board should cherry pick about trans issues: I was staggered by the hypocrisy of people nodding along to Seethlaw's post when if a transwoman tried to give chapter and verse on oestrogen, they would be crucified on this board.

Out of interest, I've heard other women who have taken testosterone say they were unable to cry whilst on it. Have you experienced this?

Absolutely. I used to be unable to understand my ex-husband who said he couldn't cry. Now I get it! I'll still cry if reading a mushy story, but when it comes to my own life, nothing. No matter what feeling I may experience, positive or not, there'll be no crying, not even when I wish for it for the nervous release of it. I just can't.

Personally, thought this desperately sad, that they wanted to suppress the intense love and connection they felt for their newborn.

I hope it's because they didn't realise that those feelings would be affected too :( Me, it's the other way around: I want to get that emotionality back.

My sense was that they didn't feel comfortable feeling that surge of mother love..because it reminded them that they were indeed the mother, and female.

I don't think that is what seethlaw is doing, though. They are talking about the effects testosterone had on them......which is some small way do replicate some of the male experience - of the type that is induced by testosterone.

I've heard men who take oestrogen say they do get more weepy and emotional; more emotionally sensitive. I don't doubt that........though, of course, that does not make them a woman.

Would they, though? If they just said, "Here's my experience with oestrogens," I don't think that would create anger in and of itself. The problem is that they rarely stop at that and instead go, "So now I totally understand you women", or worse, "And that makes me a woman too."

Oh no 😧! That would be terrible. What does it matter what kind of feelings they experience, if they are more typical of men or women, as long as they are beautiful :( ?

Yes, but as we are talking about men and male behaviour, I don't see the relevance. If a thread was started about certain female behaviour and a transwoman came on to give 'insight' just because they took oestrogen I don't think it would go down well. Obviously, hormones are only part of the story or trans men would indeed be men and trans women women.

Male sexuality is generally wired differently, and men can be more predatory in the sense that they tend to a more detached sex drive that is often object oriented. Some men control this impusle better than others.

When you look at traditional or romantic courtship routines, it is usually the male doing the courting, bringing the gifts, asking for attention and so on.

If you look at males of different species in the wild, they certainly do often behave in predatory ways.....often chasing or stalking the female. Some males make a big show or display of finery or prowess to impress the female or make themselves stand out.

You seem most concerned that women here might reject a man that says he is a woman?

Most women have not taken testosterone so it is interesting to ask a woman that has.

This is a reasonable point. I have to say that I am myself very sexual and sex driven, and I would describe my sex drive as fairly 'detatched' in that I can be attracted to certain body parts and certainly don't need to feel love or even liking for someone to enjoy sex with them. I don't know if that makes me an atypical woman or not, all I know is that some of the descriptions of typical femininity on Mumsnet do not fit me at all (I am not patient or nurturing, unless you're a cat, I am not especially self sacrificing, etc)

YANBU. 95% of the prison population is male, almost all sex crimes are by men. It’s because of men that many of us feel unsafe to go out in the dark and walk through a park.

And a million other things. Not all men but millions of them.

YANBU by any stretch of the imagination.

Really? If the topic was, "Why do women seem to cry more easily than men?", you think a transwoman saying, "Well, for what it's worth, I've been crying a lot since I'm taking oestrogens" would automatically not be well-received? I personally think it would be a very relevant piece of information.

I'm not concerned by that at all! I would also reject such a man. I'm not concerned with 'fairness' to transwomen. I'm just pointing out that you can't have it both ways: either taking hormones gives you an insight into living as the other sex or it does not.

Yep, what you've described corresponds pretty much exactly to the behaviour that is routinely observed in men (including a large proportion of perrennial complaints on this forum), as well as to the internal thought processes that we men routinely admit to each other when women aren't around and we're not trying to live up to their standards.

But @Gahr is right: the effect of testosterone on a female body can't be assumed to be the same as its effect upon a male body. So the overwhelming degree of correspondence between the two could just be a freakish coincidence!

I personally do not think it would be relevant as to why actual women cry, no.