Looking at men differently now I know too much?

[clingfilmed]

In recent years I've seen so much in the news and online about men's abuse and violence towards women. A man who looks totally normal and pleasant and is perhaps in many ways a good man might still be going home and creating fake AI nudes of women he knows or watching extreme porn or abusing his wife or kids or using prostitutes or cam girls or has a fetish that degrades and dehumanises women or is a complete misogynist.

There is a post on the relationships board now where a married man is hoping that just because a mum of his sons friend has been friendly towards him she might fancy him and be up for it.

Then looking at many of the men I know day to day how they talk to and interact with their wives and families is depressing to see, almost like they don't care at all.

I know its not every man, I know some men who I do think are good. I do look back to the rose tinted days of my teens when I would idealise boys and think they were so amazing and now knowing what I do about general trends and some men in particular its quite a disappointment.

Absolutely this! Also, linked to this, there is a disingenuous pretence among woke feminists to pretend that men from certain cultures are no more likely to display problematic behaviours than other men. That was actually an elephant in the room with Gisele Pelicot: while the majority of the men who assaulted her were white French, it was not an overwhelming majority and did not correspond to the demographics of the region-a fair number were of a certain religion.

Tbf, I know a couple of guys on TRT - one due to a natural condition and the other due to messing up his hormones by taking steroids in his 20s. Elevated estrogen is a relatively common side effect as the body can aromatise excess testosterone, and a common sign is feeling emotional or weepy apparently.

I don't know anyone who thinks the average man is responsible for what Kim Jong/Putin/Wayne Couzens do. What women I know object to is men standing passively by or even approving the misogynistic opinions or actions of other men that they know. E.g., you know your friend is cheating on his wife but you don't say anything bc you value his friendship and don't want to make things awkward. You see another man at a bar slipping something in a woman's drink but don't get involved. You know your friend visits prostitutes but don't stand up for them or become outraged at how horrible that is and what a shitty human being he is. You say nothing when friends belittle women, talk over them, catcall them, expect them to listen to their problems, etc. You constantly give your tacit approval to misogynistic actions. Things like that are what I object to, not a man's failure to do anything about Kim Jong or Putin.

The point about what the average man can do on an everyday basis is taken up by the White Ribbon Campaign:
We know that not all men commit violence and abuse against women and girls, but #AllMenCan work to prevent violence against women and girls.
Seemingly ‘low-level’ acts of abuse such as cat calling, intrusive staring, sharing sexist jokes and not respecting women’s personal space, all contribute to an environment that normalises sexism and misogyny. By challenging and rejecting harmful attitudes and behaviours, we can all contribute to an environment that is safer for women and girls.
Although all members of society can play a role in culture change, it’s important that men and boys take an active role both in their personal life and in workplaces, to show their allyship and encourage positive change.
Allyship: The key to real culture change — White Ribbon UK

After knocking around this earth for 69 years and living in 5 different countries, I have developed little respect for men generally. I've seen and heard too much. Even when you think you're dealing with a good one (I mean as a colleague, friend, neighbour) they do or say something and you suddenly think oh yeah.

This is a really good example of what I am talking about. The men who raped her were often husbands and fathers with decent jobs and standing in the community it workers, a fireman, a journalist, restaurant owners, even a man who was her neighbour. Men of all ages who absolutely knew what they were doing. Many were from the small town where Gisele lived and it was reported that almost everyone knew somebody involved in the case. Added to that all these men and perhaps some others besides knew what was happening and nobody reported it. How many men, even the nice one's are sexual opportunists? How many men even if they wouldn't do that themselves would just keep their mouth shut about other men doing it?

Yes to this. Very VERY few men will call another man out on something. My 'pretty OK normally' DH, has a colleague who works at a different branch to him, and he is always going on about coming on to various women, and taking them back to a hotel room and shagging them, (he is married.)

DH never says a thing to him like 'you're a lying cheating cunt,' he just umms and ahhhs.

The bloke is a fat ugly twat, and I don't believe he has shagged any woman for about 20 years, but DH never says anything to him. I have said 'why the hell do you not tell him to stop?!' And 'why not tell his wife?!' He says 'hmmm not my circus...'

As you say, men doing fuck-all about other mens shitty behaviour, and never calling them out, are not helping. They are not as bad as the other men, but they are part of the problem!

@BatchCookBabe When I was at University a mature student in our year was arrested for rape, it turned out that he was sitting at home on Friday and Saturday evenings and going out in his car as the clubs let out cruising around looking for girls who were drunk and on their own and would either offer them a lift or he would drag them into his car. He was eventually convicted to 3 rapes and suspected of several other assaults. I wasn't friendly with him but knew guys in my year who were and quite a few stuck up for him, some refusing to believe he had done it or others making the excuse that it was a difficult time for him because his wife was staying with her parents in another part of the country while she was treated for cancer and he was upset and lonely at her illness and absence. I have a visceral memory of my blood running cold as I listen to them speak and understanding what they were actually saying.

Gosh that's awful @clingfilmed but sadly not a total shock..... 😞

Which sex causes the need for emergency services in terms of averages?

I suspect there may be a general tendency in males to greater risk taking; but maybe also to more bravado and over confidence.

I think men and boys can be a lot more straightforward to deal with, and without the intense emotional pre-occupation and pair bonding -focused tendencies of girls and women. These are generalisations, of course, but as an ex teacher, I always found boys ( generally, of course ) quite simple and straightforward.

Perhaps the sexual drive/aggression is the male's greatest weakness, whereas for women/females it is something else? Women are not angels, either, and are equally as guilty and cupable of not standing up and being counted when they see something that is wrong or abusive.

There has been a man convicted of drugging and raping his wife and like in France, invited scores of other men to rape and sexually abuse her. This man is in England. I think there's another guy too. I don't think women falling out over petty stuff equates to this.

I never claimed women are angels but seriously the level of violence, abuse and damage men do to women, children and each other is on totally different level and incomparable to the harm women might do.

The key reason why Seethlaw isn't crucified is because she's a woman telling other women what T is like. If she went to Pistonheads and tried to transplain testosterone to men, she'd get laughed off the board.

The boards protecting the lift interiors were covered in explicit sexual graffiti about what some of the men wanted to do to their female administrative colleagues who worked in the site offices. My team were horrified.

Perhaps the men behave better when the women are fellow tradies who could crush and bury them with an excavator. (Recalling from a previous thread that you mentioned driving heavy plant.)

My job isn't exactly safe. The reason why I have eyesight (reagents) and unbroken toes (heavy equipment) is that I use my PPE.

The harness incident was on a site I wasn't working on, over the road from the building we were moving out of. He hadn't forgotten to attach the clip. He had attached it and was traversing along an exterior walkway, got to a colleague who was in his way, and unclipped and went on the drop side of the colleague to get past him before reclipping. Luck was on his side that day, but, had he fallen, it wouldn't have been an unavoidable consequence of the environment being dangerous nor human forgetfulness, but a completely preventable outcome of a wilful decision to remove lifesaving PPE.

This kind of idiocy is what I am talking about.

Absolutely agree, I feel the same about the meat and dairy industry, I'm laughed at for defending animal rights too. I suppose every layer of society is unbothered when stepping on the ones 'beneath' them.

@SpinelessBastardsAllim with you. I think the way that the dairy industry and any farming that involves using females of species such as chickens and pigs is a reflection of the way farmers use these animals as commodities there for their own benefit only.

let's not forget that there are countries in this world that do not allow females over primary school age to attend school and later, they have to cover up from head to toe if they leave the house. Men don't allow females to work or even see a doctor. Other parts of the world promote FGM. I've been married to what I thought were decent men but both turned out not to be. One hid his mate in the house and told him to sneak upstairs as we were having sex. The other was sneakily watching porn. I was s sexually abused by my sister's partner when I was a child. I've been sexually abused by several other men through early teenage years as was my niece. No one helped because it was the 60s/70s and it was brushed aside and the attitude was "he's just a man, he can't help it" ( women) or a slap in the back from other men and comments like "nice one mate". I always thought there were more decent, and I mean genuinely decent men than not, but it's taken me all of my life from late childhood into retirement for me to understand that properly genuinely decent men are as rare as hens teeth. So no, I do not trust any man. I fear for my grandchildren and great grandchildren because things are most certainly getting worse. It is known that the internet draws people in. After all it is designed to be addictive and there's so much weird sex and unrealistic demands made of women by men during sex that it's distorted and impossible for women to enjoy that it's just ridiculous and dangerous. Why else have we now got a law explicitly banning choking during sex? I despair.

@Ownedbykitties

To be fair, if this man is just talking shite, then giving him a lecture would just be giving him a reaction. If your husband just 'mmmhmms' that is actually more effective. I don't take 'mmmhmms' as condoning behaviour, more as ignoring it.

I genuinely don't think that's the case. I think a lot of people are very naive as to how genuinely unpleasant and even abusive women can be. It's a lot more than 'not being angels'. I have direct experience of this.

It's easy to say this when it's somebody else who's teeth are going to get knocked out. Men are over twice as likely to be assaulted by a stranger and a worrying number also get randomly stabbed, often when intervening as a good samaritan.

If you wouldn't step in and defend a man then why should he risk his life to do it for you? It's irrelevant if he's stronger, he's not a paid bodyguard and the more intimidated the aggressor the more likely he is to use a weapon or call his mates in.

I also hate the thought of nobody coming to my rescue in a situation but men are real people with families and children who their primary obligation is to. Nobody wants to take on a dangerous individual and a situation involving a man making lewd comments etc might be a lesser evil than somebody getting fatally stabbed.

Feminists always talk about 'risk assessment' when out and about but logically men should be at least as vigilant. You can be sure that a man is playing out all the eventualities in his head as he stands there watching a thuggish looking guy leering at a group of women. He's thinking "is it worth my life to speak up? What happens to my family if I don't make it home tonight?" etc.