Teen threw out Harry Potter books. Help me form points for discussion please

[ItsPeggyOlson]

Please help me with points about how JKR is not a monster to put to my young teen who grew up with her books but has had head turned by friends/school. I’m also looking for a primer in basic GC points. I think there must be an existing thread but I can’t find it so would be happy if someone could link it.

In past talks I thought I had made convincing enough points about people not being able to change sex but haven’t discussed the topic in a good while and clearly others have now radicalised my child and it’s very upsetting. My muddled peri brain is making it hard to form coherent points but I would like to have a calm conversation after I initially flew off the handle when I first realised what had happened with the books. Thanks for any guidance.

Old people? Their parents you mean. What an odd attitude.

After 25yrs working with teenagers I’d ask why and I’d really listen to their response. As adults we like to impart our wisdom, kids don’t care. They want to feel heard. Don’t approach this as a point you need to win. General questions about critical thinking, differences of opinion, how to debate or how to handle disagreement are far more useful.

I'm afraid I also don't think there is anything you can say right now. I'm sure the points you've already made are strong but I doubt your daughter has been convinced by facts and logic - far more likely that she's been swayed by emotion and the strong desire/need to be accepted by her friends. Plus you are her mother and therefore, in a teenager's head, you are wrong.

Have you seen this young teacher’s video? It’s a perfect class on the Socratic method, and getting someone to actually examine their own preconceptions (specifically about JKR):

m.youtube.com/watch?v=zIPPpsJY39c

Isn’t that like saying ‘ignore your child’s extremism’ ? Pretty sure we’ve a few examples this year where that didn’t work out so well.

Which is more important to you, a close relationship with your child or winning the argument?

Teens tend to have strong and sometimes flawed opinions. Wise parents let them work their way through those phases, only intervening if they are at real risk of harm or of harming others.

The best gift we can give our children is the freedom to have different opinions from us.

I am as gender critical as they come but I'm not falling out with loved ones over it.

I was about to mention this. Takes all the emotion out of it.

Has she literally just chucked the books in the bin? And they were in decent condition
If so i’d start from that angle tbh that we want to try and minimise waste, that these books could have gone to charity or a freecycle group. Then ask her to explain her actions and continue a rational discussion.

To be fair I threw out all my childhood Dr Dolittle books after trying to read them to the kids and having to skip the N word used liberally as a descriptor.

Thank you all so much for the perspective and wise counsel. I don't have time to respond to everyone now but will come back to this thread. I am so grateful for the support. And yes, a 13-year-old who should know better getting rid of books was what made me initially very angry.

First I’d think very carefully about whether your relationship either your dc is more or less important to you than your gc beliefs.

The teenage years are very difficult. They’re pulling away. They’re looking at us as a model for what they don’t want to be, because the drive to differentiate is biological, innate and overpowering. It hurts as a parent but everything is unfolding just as it should.

If your gc beliefs are fundamental to you, tread lightly. Don’t show your hand too directly, because if you do, it could be the defining point of differentiation.

If your relationship with your dc is important, listen to them with interest and curiosity about who they are right now, how they arrived at a point where throwing out books felt necessary. Don’t challenge or correct, just listen. They’re on a journey but you don’t know the destination. They’re path is completely different to yours so let them tell
you about the scenery.

Listen to their feelings and empathise because that’s the crux of relationship.

Don’t poke holes in their logic - they’ll notice the holes as they try to explain, so don’t distract them from their internal critic or else they’ll only hear the critic speaking with your voice, instead of their own.

It is absolutely crucial that they hear their own doubts, and not just on this issue. This is a vital life skill.

It’s very likely that their position is driven my empathy, a sense of injustice - those are great things so don’t belittle them.

When the logic fails (as it will) steer them back to their feelings and support them. If they only learn that you can disagree and still love each other, they’ll have learned something profound.

This is what I was attempting to say but @GooseyGandalf explains it far more articulately

Just got to wait it out. My son is 20 and used to be incredibly 'right on' and it was infuriating but we just let him blether on. He's over it all now and also thinks a lot of it is ridiculous.

Whose books? The ones in our house belonged originally to me so I'd be expecting to be bought a new set. If they were hers you might want to get your own set for the house, and just have words with her about the waste.

Apart from that I told DD I thought people were wrong about JKR, sent DD JKR's essay and asked her to have a read and a think. Iirc I suggested she also try reading some accounts by trans kids. I was confident that anything she looked up would start with a stereotype pile-on, which I know DD will recognise because she's a big stereotype objector.

I think I gave her a couple of my main points but she wasn't up for a discussion at the time. I started with stereotypes and sexism which I know are things DD and I are very much in agreement on. That being a girl just means you have a female body, it shouldn't limit you in any other way. That sometimes girls have different needs to boys due to these biological differences, and that where biology isn't a factor maybe treating them differently is just sexism.

Just to add, I know you care about both @ItsPeggyOlson in case my post reads more snarkily than I intended

Teenagers are hard!!

if I remember right, the teacher Warren Smith lost his job because his school/college shit their pants when the video went viral.
Im going to guess some students declared they felt ‘unsafe’ in his class.

He still runs his YouTube channel about critical thinking though.

Listen to the witch trials of JKR in the car when your DD has no means if escapes!!

Not sure how that would improve your relationship though!!

I agree with this. Unless your child specifically asks for your opinion, I would avoid saying anything that sounds as though you’re trying to change her mind. It will not work. She needs to have reached the stage where she is open minded and willing to listen. This might take a while. It might never happen. But she is a separate person and, unless she is doing something that will put her in danger in some way, I’d leave well alone.

I feel for you @ItsPeggyOlson - absolutely ridiculous how they jump on the band wagon - try and explain she is an individual and can explore her own mindset - without being hectored by Chief, self appointed, decision maker of whole Group. I would have chucked first couple of books - only because they so poorly written! However the easy to follow narrative and concepts of rescue, good overcoming 'Evil' followed by the really dark stuff about scratching beneath the surface of supposed benefactor. Most of all, it encouraged children to read. As for the PP who gave her 20 plus years daughter a pass because she hadn't quite matured - I have no words. She'll be coming back to Mum for 'help' until either she or mum drops her (Crocs) Clogs.

"How do you legislate for being kind? You have to have unemotive descriptors to make law work fairly and without bias. If we went on 'being kind' who would decide what was kind and what wasn't in a way that didn't involve bias and was universally consistent. The law only works when people feel it has been fair, otherwise the whole system collapses. This is why we have blunt cold and unemotive legal definitions. If we had a panel who decided what was kind and what wasn't kind, you risk this being policised like in the US - this works for you when you agree with the panel about what they think is fair, but if the political climate changes you might be on the opposite. In the UK we try and avoid this by our system being neutral and based on definitions that everyone understands"

"Our uk definitions are interesting. If we didn't recognise sex in law, we couldn't see transpeople in law, if we couldn't see them in law we cant give them legal protections. You can't define transpeople any other way. Gender as a concept is a circular argument that uses sexist but largely indefinable stereotypes which are contested and don't have enough of a universal understanding in our society"

"Therefore JKR recognising sex protects transpeople."

"Trans people are inadvertently campaigning to remove sex are campaigning for their own legal invisibility and removal of rights because they don't understand how the legal system works in the UK. Part of the problem is the US influence and it's failings being imposed on the UK. This actively harms transpeople as much as it harms women"

Heads explode.

Ok, I’ve three teens and have apparently parented them entirely differently from previous posters.

Sure there’s a lot of listening, empathy, choosing your battles but equally there’s many times I’m really tough on them. I hold the line. Calmly mind, not shouting or losing it. Just saying ‘no, not happening, end of story’. And I can tolerate them hating me for a bit.

I do not ‘have gender critical beliefs’ I live in reality. My kids thrive when I am confident, direct and honest with them. The clarity is powerful to them.

You don’t say if your child is male or female.
If they are female and believe that men are women if they say they are, then that’s a major safeguarding fail. Where I live there’s many young men/older men who want you to believe they’re women. If I went into town now I’d find them working on the changing rooms at New Look and River Island. I am not protecting my daughter if I lead her to believe there’s a special category of men that are ‘safe’ and she should be unconcerned to undress for them. Just no.
To live independently and safely she needs to be able to risk assess as accurately as possible. And the very first step is to say categorically and automatically ‘that is a man’.

So I hold the line. Coercive control exists. Fetishism is real. Sex matters. Men are never women.

Women have been sexually assaulted in prison by men because of this ridiculous ideology. Young women have stripped and been spray tanned by a double rapist. Women have been hounded and put through hell for the basic right not to undress in front of men.

So no, I won’t pussyfoot around my teenagers. They are free to believe what they want of course but I will lay out facts, show them clearly with examples when they’re being grossly naive and don’t hesitate to point out to them when their privilege is coming across as arrogance.

It sounds like the lesson to be learned here from all involved is to respect the views of others, and respect property, and to consider what effective actions are and aren’t.

You think you’re right. Your child thinks they’re right. It’s a topic of opinion, and a spectrum. Not black or white right or wrong.

To succeed in the world people need to learn to understand and respect the views of others whether or not they agree with them. Be able to engage in healthy discussion on contentious topics, and also know when it’s appropriate to agree to disagree.

Sounds like something you both have some opportunity to develop on.

Great post

Do you really think that there are shades of grey here?

What aspect of 'humans can't change sex and women's rights need to be protected' do you think is simply an opinion rather than a fact?

I disagree - it is not a topic of opinion.

I can show respect for others without respecting their deeply harmful opinions.

Men are not women.
There are no special ‘safe’ categories of men.
Knowing and stating who is male or female is a foundational principle of protecting the vulnerable.
Women and girls have been sexually assaulted, harassed and hounded due to this ideology.

To succeed in the world our kids need to be able to differentiate opinion from fact and understand when they’re being manipulated.