Why do you care so much about gender issues?

[GCScot]

Longtime lurker, first time poster.

I'm fully GC, mainly due to this board. So first of all, thank you for all the excellent thoughtful discussion!

DH and most of my family are also GC. But they don't care about it anywhere near as much as me. This got me wondering - why do some of us care so much about gender ideology?

My reasons are:

1. I'm a lifelong feminist. Gender ideology causes so many issues for women. But the attempted redefinition of the very word woman feels like an actual existential threat

1. I'm a lifelong lefty. Finding myself on 'the other side' to left-wing political parties, friends, and institutions I have trusted all my life (The Guardian, BBC, NHS, universities) has completely thrown me. Am I wrong? If I'm not wrong, how have they gone so spectacularly wrong?

1. I have a science background. The (wilful?) ignorance of the basic science of biological sex and the prioritisation of feelings over facts enrages me

1. I have personally had a double mastectomy and hormone therapy for breast cancer. These were extreme medical treatments to save my life and have long-term health repercussions - I am at high risk of heart disease and osteoporosis. The fact that physically healthy children and vulnerable young people are being encouraged to undergo these treatments makes me sad and angry

1. The 'No debate' aspect of this issue is totally against my values. I work for a fully captured institution (Scottish university) and being unable to freely speak about this issue means that it is frequently running through my mind

Do any of the above resonate with others? Do you have any additional reasons why you care so much about this issue?

I agree, @TheKeatingFive . Even as a man, I find it frankly a bit scary. How thin and flimsy is the veneer of the social settlement, so easily overturned in next to no time. And the level of misogny that it demonstrates.

You have elegantly distilled the main thrust of my thesis. 😁

Exactly.

I guess I thought people meant it when they supported women's rights. That it wasn't just about parroting the 'right thing to say' or following fashion.

I was very naive it seems

Because it’s fundamentally crucial to girls’ safety to be able to say unequivocally ‘that person is male’ and then accurately risk assess any situation. It is beyond moronic to lie to girls.

Because I was brought up by truly awful deceitful people and I see their destructive patterns of behaviour in both men who say they are women and the shameless women who advocate for them.

Yes, when I first encountered this ideology I kind of smoothed over a couple of objections from friends with a variety of 'be kind'. I cringe about that now

Guess it kind of hurts my intellectual pride that I went along with it for a while. Maybe some people who are still holding on to it are so invested now that they just can't question it at all? Similar to cults/closed groups where the more extreme the initiation rite, the more reluctant the member is to leave later

1. Like you, I'm a lifelong lefty.
2. I have a bit of a science background (started studying a science, but changed subjects at uni).
3. I have several highly vulnerable girls in my family.
4. I know 25 women and girls who have been raped.
5. I am an atheist.
6. I work in a captured sector.
7. Group think and peer pressure rub me the wrong way.
8. The totalitarian aspects of the ideology.

@Starbursthack's story resonated a lot with me. I've been a feminist for as long as I can remember, and have always rebelled against gender stereotypes and found it hard to fit in with expectations of femininity. Probably would count as gender dysphoria nowadays. I felt I was a person rather than a woman (though obviously I knew I was female) and my parents encouraged me to feel that no door was shut to me simply because of my sex. I found pregnancy incredibly difficult because it forced me to confront my ambivalence towards being female - and also brought me bang up against more gender stereotypes to push back against. Majority male friends at university and probably 50:50 at school.

Like @CautiousLurker2 I started off thinking that 'transwomen' were a small minority of deeply sad, gender dysphoric men who had had years of therapy and relied on surgery as a last resort. As such, they deserved my sympathy and my support. It did feel a bit like Gay Rights 2.0.

The thing that initially jarred with me was the talk of 'ladybrain', because that made it clear that this was all about regressive stereotypes. I might be female, but I don't have a pink fluffy ladybrain.

Then it was concern that 'transwomen' using women's toilets made them inaccessible for women with a history of being on the receiving end of male violence or whose religion prevented them being in a state of undress around non-related males. While I did not have a particular concern about mixed sex toilets for myself I could see it was an issue for others, and that it would further marginalise already-marginalised women.

Then it was the realisation that when people said 'transwomen are women' they meant 'actual women' as opposed to 'honorary women because we want to be nice'. Which meant that there was no non-circular definition of the word 'women', which meant EITHER the erasure of our sex class OR the mass imposition of gender stereotype expectations (neither of which was remotely a good thing). It is silly to think that the definition of a word can make that much of a difference, but it does.

And then it was realising how recent and fragile women's rights are (it's still less than a century since women had the right to vote on equal terms to men), and how this is yet another way to keep us in our places. Fuck that with a capital F.

Because women matter.

I've done a lot of things as a "first for women" only to have so many men dismiss my achievements out of hand, or minimise them. Try doing them on someone else's dime... it's almost impossible. Then you really "feel like a woman".

I've met lots of transwomen in my life - but they never been convincingly female. Mostly, I've felt parodied as a woman.

In my lifetime, women have had a tough slog to get nowhere near close to parity in income and opportunity, only for men to suddenly declare themselves us and subsequently get opportunities flung at them. Women? My arse.

When NZ sent a 40 year old man to the Olympics to compete against 20 -somethings , I finally went full-on terf.

It's insulting to pretend otherwise and I'm taking offence.

What is your take on the reasons that it has taken hold?

I feel like it may be a combination of lobbying groups such as Stonewall needing a new campaign and source of funding after the fight for gay marriage was won, and governments who wish to position themselves as modern liberal states being all too eager to hear their message. Then a whole load of resentful MRAs jumping at the chance to backlash feminism. And a lot of well-intentioned women who want to be kind going along with it until it was too late to back out.

I may be derailing my own thread here 😂 But just how this has all come about is pretty fascinating (if terrifying)

For me, it's because there are so many things which so obviously, fundamentally, shockingly wrong (males in female prisons, rape crisis services refusing to offer single sex services, women being forced under threat of sacking to undress in front of men etc etc etc) being defended by those who simply don't believe that women should be able to say no. That women should put up and shut up. And all this is expressed openly and gleefully and with the backing of institutions such as the Police. As I've said before, it's a misogynist's wet dream.

And as well as no debate, the grip this has taken over institutions I used to have faith in, pride even, has been shocking. I've watched in horror as my elected representatives called rape survivors bigots for daring to express that they should be allowed to merely request a female medical examiner. Have seen my First Minister call women who pointed out the obvious issues with self ID bigots and that their views were 'not valid'.

It's become vitally important to fight against our credulous, ridiculous captured institutions to restore sense and reality.

Some fantastic analysis here

https://x.com/prof_curiosity1/status/2000107197389250820?s=46&t=OKyRO4eweTteo5FEt_J1MQ

Particularly this idea of 'more knowledgable others' and the ponzi scheme that created, which absolutely connects to back to Stonewall and so on.

Ultimately, society mistook activists for experts, they mistook MRA/fetishistic men for the next human rights movement. And all of that comes down to prioritising feelings over knowledge/facts. Parking their brains basically. And they can't row back now, because they can't admit thei were wrong.

I feel like the university sector have a huge amount to answer for here. They gave this nonsense credibility in the form of gender studies departments. They intimidated their actual scientists into silence.

They unleashed a whole host of poorly educated, but highly confident young people into the NGO sector and activist roles and backed them to follow their misplaced passions and shut down dissenters as 'bigots'.

People my age (40s), with little knowledge of the subject, assumed it had credibility because it was backed by the university, medical and then professional communities.

Safeguarding for me, my dm, dsis, dniece and all the other women and girls out there plus women girls have an equal right to access to fair and safe sports.

pretty basic reasons really

Also in case anyone is swayed by the ‘not all men’ line of argument, I know my friend’s dh isn’t a danger to my ds but I also appreciate that my friend’s dh goes through DBS and safeguarding checks to be able to coach a junior football team and none of us would have it any other way

I reckon it was #NODEBATE that did it.

As soon as the bullies were enabled to silence dissent, frame questions and challenge as "transphobic", and to use the forces of law and order and social control to impose their anti social / dangerous beliefs on society, we lost it.

Once people knew that they could be disciplined, sacked, pilloried and often physically harmed for challenging this ideology, they kept silent. And by relentlessly targeting the young who are ill equipped to navigate sexual fetishes, are too immature to identify coercive control and abusive relationships and can be as equally frightened & intimidated as adults, they guaranteed a generation of children and young people accepting the incoherent world of sex change.

Due to my own life experiences and that of my female friends and family I am extremely protective of all women and on high alert for any incursion into their safety and wellbeing - hence I am a massive GC. Men will get access to our sports and safe spaces over my dead body.

The first trans woman I met was a very long time ago and was a convicted paedophile in hospital. I’ve never been able to see them as vulnerable since then. Just as ordinary men.

I feel like the university sector have a huge amount to answer for here. They gave this nonsense credibility in the form of gender studies departments. They intimidated their actual scientists into silence.
They unleashed a whole host of poorly educated, but highly confident young people into the NGO sector and activist roles and backed them to follow their misplaced passions and shut down dissenters as 'bigots'.

Amen to this. And also into the media, showbiz...

Because its probably the most ludicrous set of ideas I've come across in my life. I am staggered that it's taken hold, fascinated as to how, and can't bring myself to look away.

My theory about Nicola Sturgeon (and other politicians) is/was that they have been playing this transgenderism to their international peers. In particular the Biden administration to get approval. Sturgeon had to show how progressive she was to get external support if they managed to detach from the UK. I assume they thought no one would notice domestically or they could be kept quiet…. Then came Isla Bryson which blew up their rose tinted view, then shortly after FWS and Donald Trump…. It’s an ideology that cant last because it is nonsense but it’s going to take years to get rid (as it’s been creeping in for years).

I was oblivious until Peggie in February and was then enraged by the cheek of these men. Im just so over how the patriarchy just keep coming up with new reasons to squash women. Bloody irritating!! ESP as I can rarely discuss in real life

I reckon someone (yes to them being international) promised Sturgeon big rewards to push the bullshit through.

Male privilege.
I grew up in Latin America, I was raised to be less than, educated to be pretty and for my cleverness to be a credit to my family and husband.
I saw boys raised to be someone to be the leaders, the authorities.
My voice was to be a party piece.
Misogyny shaped my life, myself.
Live and experience made me a feminist.
I find extremely offensive that a man raised in male privilege and not having been made less than by Misogyny dares to claim to know what does it feel to be a woman.
Genetics was my favourite subject at school, you can not change your chromosomes. I was completely gobsmacked when 10 yeas ago my daughter, a Philosophy student ,came home, with the absurdity that chromosomes didn't matter. I just thought she was being obtuse, I didn't understand yet what was going on.
What finally peacked me was seeing lesbiangs being forced to accept having sex with men.

I care because the current gender ideology is cementing gender stereotypes, instead of removing them. The concept that men can ‘live as a woman’ (by wearing ‘wimmins clothes’ etc) undoes decades of feminist/equality campaigning to stop women being forced into looking/dressing/thinking/doing things that keep us limited by patriarchal social constraints. I’m from the generation that was not allowed to wear trousers to school, that was made to study ‘Home Ec’ and sewing whilst the boys did Technical Drawing and metal work, and so on. The concepts the TiMs declare to be ‘facts’ are regressive and repressive.

I also don’t want to be gawked at in gym/swimming pool changing rooms by a bloke who’s declared himself to be a laydee, and don’t want to see women who’ve trained for decades being usurped in sports by mediocre male contestants.

Honestly I don’t give a fuck who wears what, if men feel ‘comfortable’ in a skirt and heels then they are free to wear that (although I dispute that they are comfortable dressed like that because heels are horrible to wear for any length of time, so I suspect it’s more of a kink than anything) but if they want to grow their hair and wear make up then I’m not going to try to stop them, just as I don’t expect anyone to try to tell me I must wear make up and heels just because I am a woman.

Do I believe that body dysmorphia is real? Yes, absolutely, there are definitely people who are so uncomfortable with themselves that they feel like surgical alteration is the only thing that will make them feel right in their skin, look at Katie Price, or Loki Ferrari, Pete Burns or Jocelyn Wildenstein. Trying to change sex is the most extreme way to become a completely different person, it’s literally the opposite of who you are, if you see what I mean.

But there’s no such thing as a woman trapped in a man’s body, or vice versa, and I won’t pretend I can see the Emperors clothes.

I wonder why young people are so prone to believing gender ideology. Is it an age thing, or a generation thing?

Maybe young people are more idealistic and more prone to black and white thinking. Or young women in particular don't realise quite how much some men can hate women (not all men etc). I think middle aged women just give less of a shit what men think

The No Debate aspect is chilling

That's an interesting idea about Sturgeon maybe wanting to gain an ally from Biden's administration if Scottish independence went ahead. It seems like the split in views in the USA is almost entirely down party lines

I think that every 'belief' (by which i mean sonething we choose to accept as true, rather than those things proven to be true) serves a function to the believer. So I think the key to why do people believe, is to identify what they feel they stand to gain from the belief.
Belief in GI rewards believers with social acceptance, the purpose of a percieved 'just cause' to support, positive self image as kind to an oppressed group, the feeling of being part of an exciting future where we throw off the chains of our sex, which I think is especially attractive to women for obvious reasons.
I'm not entirely convinced that many young people are true believers. More like agnostics who enjoy the church community and the singing, and would love to believe there was a heaven, so say their prayers to be on the safe side.

I think the main reason it took hold and still has a hold is the belief that this is ‘just like homosexuality’ and the collective guilt still felt by society for how homosexual people have been treated and dealt with in law until far too recently. People look at the trajectory of social change in that area and assume that the same should and will happen when it comes to trans sexuality and transvestitism. But of course, it can’t and won’t because they are opposite things and it will take a lot longer for the majority to properly catch on to that. Because it is a little tricky, and no one wants to repeat what happened with homosexuality. Especially no one on the liberal left. For those who have gone along with this, it’s extremely difficult and often dangerous to admit they have been wrong, even as they start to realise. People who see themselves as intelligent and good at critical thinking are in agony when they realise they have been conned by TRA. Eventually it becomes undeniable but many will never be able to admit this to themselves, let alone their tribe. Their ego is at stake.