Pushing back against the so-called Nordic Model of sex work

[SnugFinch]

Hi. I'm aware that my views might not be the most popular, but I am posting here in good faith.

Many of you know that Ash Regan has been campaigning to get sex work legislation in place which follows the neo-abolitionist model, or Nordic Model. This so-called Nordic Model claims that it will punish buyers of sex work, while not criminalising sellers, and that this will benefit sex workers and stop sex trafficking.

However, this is untrue. By criminalising buyers, it ensures that the only people who will buy sex are criminals who don't care about breaking the law. And because sex workers have a smaller client pool, they have no choice but to put themselves at the mercy of these criminals, and can end up suffering violence as a result.

This so-called Nordic Model has been law in the island of Ireland for nearly a decade now, and it has made things worse for the women involved, and it has done nothing to stop sex trafficking, as the facts in this article (and the testimony of a former sex worker) prove.

https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2025/02/07/on-problems-with-the-nordic-model-of-prostitution/

Ash Regan's bill has been delayed for the moment, but it hasn't been defeated. There is a growing worry that what happened in Ireland could happen in Scotland. And it could extend to England and Wales as well.

Feminists should want to end violence against all women. So why is there support for the Nordic Model, which has proven to be so hazardous to female sex workers?

I'm curious as to what your thoughts are.

@YetAnotherDude
I think you must have missed my post upthread, where I explained about having worked with prostituted people. I will take their view of what should happen, over some bloke on the Internet who thinks that barking questions at women proves his superiority.
I believe that any society which has a history of criminalising women for seeking sex, will struggle to properly enforce the nordic model, as there is unlikely to be the will in a male dominated criminal justice system.
With regard to safety of women in brothels (after all that is what prostituted women working in one building is) this is generally a pimp employing men to intervene should a punter cause sufficient harm to decrease the financial worth of the "livestock".

@Dumbo12 I will take their view of what should happen, over some bloke on the Internet who thinks that barking questions at women proves his superiority.

Except it's not "some bloke", but published research by academics who study this for a living.

You say that you talked to people who were traumatised by the experience, who didn't find it empowering, and that pimps are criminals.
Well, NONE of what I have said contradicts any of that.

The research I mentioned was on whether the Nordic model works. It does not.
The research does not conclude that sex work is empowering, that no sex worker is ever traumatised, etc.

Do you have direct, indirect, personal or professional experience that the Nordic model works? Because that's the topic of discussion.

You seem to have confused "the Nordic model doesn't work" with "sex work is empowering, not traumatising, and pimps are not criminals"

With regard to safety of women in brothels (after all that is what prostituted women working in one building is) this is generally a pimp employing men to intervene should a punter cause sufficient harm to decrease the financial worth of the "livestock".

The academic I mentioned, and many critics of the Nordic model, argue precisely that the system makes no distinction between what you have described and 2 or 3 women, working from the same flat, with no pimp and no male enforcer. THAT is one of the big problems. Do you disagree?

why does the Nordic model criminalise women working together for safety?
I don't know. What do you think? It seems to be a flaw in the model. Perhaps it could be improved to avoid this.

why are more women prosecuted for that than men for buying sex?
I have no idea. I'm not part of the criminal justice system. Perhaps it's because the criminal justice system is biased against women, as another poster suggested. Why do you think it happens?

why do advocates of the Nordic model keep quiet about this?
I don't know. What do you expect them to say? Personally, I don't have any answers to those questions, so I'm only 'keeping quiet' because I don't have the answers.

Why has not a single advocate on this thread commented on it?
I don't know. I can't read all their minds.

what is your opinion on this? Do you not agree it is perverse? Do you not agree it is a failure of the Nordic model?
It appears to be a flaw which needs addressing. As I said in an earlier post, this means the law and the way it's applied need to be modified if it's not working as intended.

why has no one answered my points about the LSE academic concluding that the Nordic model doesn't work, her research, and her speech at the British Parliament on this?
I can only speak for myself. I haven't had time to look at this. Can you post the links again?

There. I've answered your questions. Now perhaps you could answer mine. Why do you think that the only solution to the Nordic model not working as intended is to make everything legal so that punters, pimps and traffickers can do whatever they want, regardless of the harm to women?

@OldCrone Thank you for taking the time

why does the Nordic model criminalise women working together for safety?
I don't know. What do you think? It seems to be a flaw in the model. Perhaps it could be improved to avoid this.

Sure. But, when I see that most if not all advocates never comment on this and never say that this should change, it becomes logical to suspect that either they don't know the matter at all, or they simply don't care about women's safety

why are more women prosecuted for that than men for buying sex?
I have no idea. I'm not part of the criminal justice system. Perhaps it's because the criminal justice system is biased against women, as another poster suggested. Why do you think it happens?

Let's try to be evidence-based, not ideology-based. Let's try to avoid the usual when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Many researchers say a big driver is that it is hard to secure a conviction if the sex worker in question doesn't testify. And most won't, for a combination of privacy + fear they will lose customers.

why do advocates of the Nordic model keep quiet about this?
I don't know. What do you expect them to say? Personally, I don't have any answers to those questions,

I don't expect anyone to have a magical solution, but I expect intellectually honest people to recognise when something is perverse and wrong. Advocates failing to recognise that criminalising two women working together for safety either don't know the issue or don't care. Either way, they shouldn't be listened to

On the academic:
https://www.lse.ac.uk/people/niina-vuolajarvi

Start from the evidence she presented to the British Parliament. It's a short read: https://bills.parliament.uk/publications/60710/documents/6485

Also:

https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/politics/criminalising-the-sex-buyer

https://www.lse.ac.uk/news/latest-news-from-lse/l-december-22/policy-makers-must-not-look-to-nordic-model-for-sex-trade-legislation

Why do you think that the only solution to the Nordic model not working as intended is to make everything legal so that punters, pimps and traffickers can do whatever they want, regardless of the harm to women?

This is a strawman. Who has said this? I have never said this, nor have I ever heard anyone say it, either. Have you? Where?

Most academics think it is better to decriminalise the buying of sex - while of course keeping pimping trafficking etc illegal. This is the case in England, for example. Read what that academic wrote - she can explain it better than I can.

Do you see why a honest discussion is impossible? Too many of you feel triggered, get blinded by ideological fury, and then fight against strawman arguments which NO ONE has made.

Decriminalising sex buyers becomes... decriminalising pimping and trafficking
Noting that some women choose to do it freely becomes.... I don't think women are people.
Quoting academics who explain why the Nordic model doesn't work becomes... why do I think pimps are not criminals.

@oldcrone
So, @YetAnotherDude, it seems you agree with the Nordic model in principle, but you don't think it works in practice?

@eatfigs
So if it was implemented such that women who work together for safety aren't criminalised, and the men who buy sex are criminalised - with very long sentences, up to life in prison - would you support that?

No, allowing women to work together is not sufficient.

Criminalising sex buyers doesn't work, it's counterproductive.

The (female) academic I mentioned explained it well addressing the British Parliament. I'll quote from https://bills.parliament.uk/publications/60710/documents/6485

Criminalising the Purchase of Sex •
Findings from Sweden and Norway: o

• Law endangers sex workers by undermining safety strategies (e.g. client screening, choice of location) o
• Police harassment and surveillance common; trust in law enforcement diminished o Stigma worsened; public support for criminalising selling of sex has increased significantly o
• Minimal or no access to promised social services; no increased funding for support systems o
• No robust evidence that the law reduces trafficking or the prevalence of commercial sex

• Consequences: o

• More violence and unsafe conditions o Isolation from services and officials o
• Undermining of sex workers’ autonomy and rights o
• Harm is disproportionately severe for migrants and vulnerable populations

Evidence from Other Countries • Ireland and France: Post-legislation impacts include: o

• Increase in violence and marginalisation o
• *Decreased safety and negotiation power o Loss of income and worsening health outcomes o
• Deterioration in relations with law enforcement and public services

Recommendations

1. Remove all criminal penalties related to consensual adult commercial sex, including: o

• Selling and buying sex (New Clause 3 would support this recommendation) o
• Non-exploitative third-party involvement

2 Shift focus from punitive measures to harm reduction, health, and social support 3. Design policy around sex workers’ lived realities and safety needs

Conclusion
The so-called Nordic Model has not achieved its goals of protecting people in the sex trade or reducing trafficking. Instead, it has resulted in harmful unintended consequences, including: • Increased vulnerability to violence and exploitation • Stigmatization and social exclusion • Deterioration in access to housing, health care, and legal protection

Enforce it how exactly? If you have any workable ideas I'm sure every country that has the Nordic Model would be interested.

First task is catching suspected sex buyers. Since most prostitution, in Scotland and the rest of the UK and Ireland at least, now takes place in private indoors rather than on the street that creates a difficulty since police can't see through the walls of sex workers' homes.

Second difficulty is getting a conviction once you have a suspect. You need the sex worker to go to court and testify for this to happen. Nordic Model countries have found sex workers don't want to and won't do this. The police and courts rely heavily on clients confessing.

Look through a client's phone for evidence? Any clients with an ounce of sense living in Nordic Model countries will know to delete all their texts with a sex worker, make sure payment and sex or anything incriminating aren't mentioned in the texts(just make it look to anyone reading it that you're meeting a friend for a coffee for example), and if they're smart use Whatsapp/Signal/ or similar. Clients will probably use a fake name and other details if their country has the NM.

Maybe the police could check the sex worker's bag for condoms for evidence the meeting was for sex? Guess what, sex workers are less likely to carry condoms in NM countries. One of many reasons health and HIV orgs don't support the NM.

The NM doesn't stop prostitution from happening. It just makes both clients and sex workers take a few extra steps to stay under the radar.

This is why N. Ireland has only managed to convict one client in a decade. They must be so embarrassed.

It's fascinating how much time and effort men are putting in to discredit the only system currently in place anywhere to deter men from paying prostituted women to waive their consent.

@dumbo12 It is fascinating how much time and energy certain characters dedicate to deflect and ignore the evidence which debunks their ideological nonsense.

The only system which deters men? Really? Where is the evidence?

Yours is textbook deflecting: there is a ton of evidence showing that the Nordic model doesn't work and doesn't deter demand.
Do you address the data, the evidence, the research? No. You deflect. You come up with strawman arguments.

Tell me, what would you say to the female academics who reached the same conclusion as me? I am curious. Would you accuse them of the same nonsense you are accusing me of?

It is clear that you lot don't care about data and evidence. You pat yourself on the back because you support a system which aligns with your ideology. Does the system actually work? Does it achieve its stated aims? Does it make things better or worse? You don't know, don't want to know, don't care. At least be honest about it.

You are like someone who replies "ah, so do you support narcos and traffickers, do you want your kids to do heroin?" to someone who dares point out that the war on drugs has not worked (which doesn't mean advocating free heroin for everyone)

Given your apparent inability to discuss this matter from anything but a male perspective and your bad faith arguments, i shall decline to discuss this further with you.
My view of how prostitution harms women comes from working with prostituted women and having some limited contact with pimps. I do not believe that it is right for men to pay to circumvent consent. I do not believe that men should be able to buy the right to belittle and harm women. If men require relief, unless they do not have hands, they can service themselves.

@Dumbo12 Linking, summarising and reporting the research of a (female) academic on the matter means... "discuss this matter from anything but a male perspective and your bad faith arguments" ???

I have been accused of all kinds of nonsense, yet I would be the one with bad faith arguments? You lot are truly unbelievable.

i shall decline to discuss this further with you.

You mean that you refuse to discuss with me, after I have debunked and demolished your nonsense, and you are unable to answer my inconvenient questions? Colour me surprised!

My view of how prostitution harms women comes from working with prostituted women and having some limited contact with pimps.

You are - again! - making confusion.
You are confusing "the Nordic model doesn't work" with "prostitution doesn't harm women and pimps are not criminals".

Remember the (female) academic who explained to the British Parliament why the Nordic model doesn't work and is counterproductive.
She said the same things I have repeated here.

Do you think she says prostitution doesn't harm women?
Do you think she says prostitution is glamorous?
Do you think she says pimps are not criminals?
Do you think she says men have any right to female bodies?
Do you think she supports the right to belittle and harm women?
Do you think she discusses the matter from a male perspective?

OF COURSE NOT!!!

She says the Nordic model does NOT work. And explains why.
Saying the Nordic model does not work doe NOT imply any of the points above. Not one.

It is truly disconcerting that there are people out there who are incapable of comprehending such a banality.

💯. Police would end up catching a lot of their own, too.

That academic's report is shocking. Lots of examples of police intimidating and blackmailing prostitutes and their families and landlords, whilst turning a blind eye to the punters.

You'd think that could be sorted out (leave the families alone, allow prostitutes to testify anonymously, etc). But, hey, maybe our resident contrarians are right, and the NM just can't be made to work.

So, you convinced me (no mean feat, as I didn't even have a firm view about this before). Buying and selling sex should be stamped out by making it illegal.

It's not legal to sell yourself to be hunted to death, or sell a kidney, or commit gbh on each other by mutual consent. Because the right to life is inalienable, and maybe the right to only have consensual sex should be too.

Will never happen, of course, because it's 'traditional'.

@theilltemperedamateur Buying and selling sex should be stamped out by making it illegal.

Outlawing buying sex has not worked.
What makes you think that outlawing the selling, too, would work?

Don't we risk criminalising the more desperate women who'd resort to sex work for lack of alternatives?
And what if someone has been trafficked? Do we want those women to be twice the victim: first of traffickers, then of the justice system??

I just got fed up of PPs bleating about how the NM doesn't work, without suggesting how to fix it/what to replace it with. I take it you favour a free-for-all. I do not.

What I proposed will never happen. But suppose it did? The women could be helped (even if it meant getting a conviction). Trafficking victims would have a coercion defence. The pimps and traffickers could be rooted out, and the 'respectable' punters shamed in their local paper. What's not to like?

@theilltemperedamateur I just got fed up with people who think that it is sufficient to imagine how they would want a reform to work, without bothering thinking about whether it can actually work and what the actual, real-world consequences are.

I take it you favour a free-for-all. I do not.

And here we go again with the usual nonsensical attacks and strawman arguments. Pointing out that something doesn't work means wanting a free for all? Not having a magical solution means wanting a free for all?? Really?

You read that academic, right? She says the same things I say about how and why the Nordic model doesn't work. Do you think she favours a free-for-all?

But suppose it did? [...] What's not to like?
You do you but I don't daydream.
You do you but I would much rather focus about the real world

It's also not true that no one suggests how to fix it. The academic's speech at the British parliament contained very precise recommendations. But you probably don't like them because they involve the decriminalisation of buying sex (which is already a thing in England).

For whatever it may be worth, I do not understand how there isn't more enforcement against pimps and traffickers.
I opened a private tab on my browser, searched for "london high class escorts" and got plenty of "agencies" which "specialise" in Russian Brazilian Romanian etc "girls" offering "incalls" at their flats.

How easy is it for a woman from these countries to rent an apartment?
How many landlords rent a flat to a foreign woman with no visa and no proof of income?
Do they all use air bnb? Are they all sublets?
Or is there a criminal network which brings them here and arranges housing for them?
Who is behind these "agencies"?
Are they so hard to stamp out?
AFAIK these "agencies" are already illegal under current English law.

I would start from here.

If a woman tells you that she wants to be a sex worker, that she is aware of the risks, but that she still wants to do it because she finds it better than the alternatives, is your reaction that she is entitled to do stuff you disagree with, as long as it is a free, informed choice?

Sure, she can make that choice for her body. But the buyers should still be criminalised. The sellers aren’t the problem - the buyers are.

Nobody is suggesting ways to fix the NM, though: you're just coming up with reasons not to adopt it in the first place. Maybe it's possible to improve it as well as adopting your suggestions for better detection and enforcement?

Is it inconceivable that the NM could be made to work better, rather than just binned out of hand. You seem to think so, but I don't understand why you're not even prepared to consider how it could be done. The police are clearly not handling things well, for a start, which is one potential area for improvement.

In the face of these long unreadable rants, and to save us from any more of them, I now agree with @theilltemperedamateur. If the Nordic Model doesn’t work, let’s have no more of any of it in any form. Criminalise it all, wipe it out, and to hell with all of it. I’m sure we can give the women soft sentences with rehabilitation programmes in exchange for shopping the punters; the men, of course, can go to prison, and good riddance.

Let’s root it all out. These few mythical women who apparently want to do sex work will just have to accept that the consequences of that are a criminal record, and then maybe they’ll choose to do something else to get their nicer cars, perhaps?

[Edit to say, in case it wasn’t clear, it’s not your posts that are unreadable rants,@theilltemperedamateur !]

@theilltemperedamateur Nobody is suggesting ways to fix the NM,

The Nordic model is based on criminalising sex buyers - that is its very founding premise.
Many academics (like the one I quoted) and many NGOs have reached the conclusion that it doesn't work because its very founding basis (criminalising sex buyers) doesn't work.

I have not seen convincing evidence to the contrary.
I have not heard any convincing argument on how or why criminalising sex buyer could work, realistically, in practice.

The reason no one is suggesting ways to fix it is because those who have studied it concluded it is a flawed model and disagree with its founding principle. In light of this, what is there to fix?

I don't understand why you're not even prepared to consider how it could be done

What makes you say so? Of course I am prepared to consider. I have said it a gazillion times.

But I want to consider convincing evidence, not unhinged rants from angry triggered people with deficient cognitive skills, who think that saying the Nordic model doesn't work means implying that pimps are not criminals.

Like I have said multiple times, I imagine that other research may reach different conclusions. So any discussion should be based on this: on comparing the evidence, the theories, the approaches, etc. I had said it. Multiple times. That's not what folks here have done, though

@catontheironingboard has just delighted us with another rant, which is the exact opposite of what would be needed for a productive discussion. So, @catontheironingboard , you want to outlaw it all, both the buying and the selling. Perfect. May I humbly ask what makes you think it would work? May I humbly ask what has made you reach a different conclusion from the (female) academics who study this professionally? May I humbly ask what you think the real world consequences would be? Because you do care about real-world consequences, right? Right?

By all means, hurl whatever insults at me makes you feel better, accuse me of whatever monstrosity may come to your mind, accuse me of the most nonsensical strawman that I have never said, but, after you will have done all of this, can you answer? Thank you!!

If we think it is a social evil - and it sounds like you agree with us that it is - and if criminalising sex buying doesn’t work, we clearly need to take much more drastic action.

Make every aspect of it illegal and really follow up - all of it should be eradicated so that women are safe. Two women not selling sex at all are much safer than two women selling sex out of a flat working together, ergo let’s criminalise the whole “industry”, and good riddance.

If women want nicer lifestyles they will have to get good honest jobs, not fleece men for easy money for $300 an hour, no?

But I want to consider convincing evidence, not unhinged rants from angry triggered people with deficient cognitive skills

Too many of you feel triggered, get blinded by ideological fury, and then fight against strawman arguments which NO ONE has made.

Honestly, @YetAnotherDude, the only unhinged rants on here are coming from you. You're the one who comes across as angry and triggered and full of ideological fury. This all seems like projection.

Other posters are replying to you with thoughtful, calm, comments and you just hurl angry insults at everyone.

Have a cup of tea. Take a deep breath. Calm down. Think about why this issue makes you so angry. You've said it doesn't affect you personally, so maybe just step away if it upsets you so much.

I think this is the only way to have any chance of eradicating the sex trade. It seems good on the surface that the women aren't criminalised, but having read a bit of the report by the Finnish researcher, it seems that women selling sex are treated like criminals anyway under this model, which means it really isn't working as intended.

It might be better to arrest the women, but rather than punish them, send them on rehabilitation programmes and encourage them to co-operate and assist in bringing down as many pimps, traffickers and punters as possible (who can be sent off to serve suitably long prison sentences). Probably a bit idealistic and maybe it wouldn't work. But it's got to be better than sending out the message to men that it's OK to rape women as long as you pay them.

@OldCrone thoughtful, calm comments???

People on here have accused me of being a pimp and a trafficker.
Have confused "the Nordic model doesn't work" with some kind of endorsement for pimps.
Have confused decriminalising sex buyers with decriminalising pimps.
Have come up with all kinds of nonsense.
Have accused me of all kinds of monstrosities.

And I would be the one ranting and driven by ideological fury???

Calm down dude

@OldCrone I am terribly sorry if I am slightly annoyed at being constantly accused of monstrosities, falsehoods and strawman arguments by people with the cognitive skills of a 5-year old. How bad of me. I am sure you would have loved to receive the same treatment. Of course the solution is for me to calm down.

BTW, how would you react to a man telling a woman to calm down? Be honest!

Back on topic: what is the evidence from the countries which outlaw both buying and selling? I think the USA are like this, right? Also (is it a coincidence?) many dictatorships, theocracies, and countries where women don't exactly enjoy the same rights as the men.
One of the concerns is the blackmailing power men would have over women.

E.g. you are a sex worker. A client might try to force you to do stuff you don't want to, to do it without a condom (lower condom use with the Nordic model is one of the reasons NGOs oppose it), etc, or he will report you.

If both buying and selling are illegal, it is easier to prove that she is a sex worker than to prove that he saw one.

It is no coincidence that those who study it professionally recommend decriminalisation, and not outlawing both buying and selling