Thread derailment

[Temporaryusernamefortoday]

Wondering if I am the only one that’s noticed more and more thread derailments. I’m not talking about TRA taking a TWAW stance but an individual being deliberately obtuse or missing the point of an individuals posts to create an argument about a tangential element. It just seems rather insidious and designed to prevent proper conversation.

This is not a TAT but a thread about a phenomenon.

I should say in all fairness that I very much appreciate the many interesting and useful articles that @IwantToRetire posts.

When she feels the need to tell some of us off for not maintaining the correct standard of debate, or straying beyond the bounds of what she feels should be ideological orthodoxy, not so much.

Having spent too long in certain controlling environments, I have a strong reaction against posters - and it can be different posters in different contexts - who set themselves up as the Dungeon Master and determine how the rest of us should converse.

Sometimes that's an OP who is frustrated that her thread isn't going exactly how she wished.

Sometimes - there's a particular subject I have in mind where I've seen this happen multiple times - the controlling takes the form of an aggressive derailment where one poster takes over a thread and spams it with posts enforcing one particular narrative, until it's impossible to get back to the OP's point.

That's the kind of derailment I have in mind, where the obvious deliberate point of the exercise is to fill up the thread and wear down anyone who wanted to discuss the original subject.

That's not the same as a conversation organically wandering off on a tangent, which may be annoying to an OP but isn't a derailment.

You're a midwife, not Goddess of the Multiverse. If you don't think women have the right to opine on how you interact with service users, then you are part of the problem not the solution

We don't know about the friend, but Sarah herself is not among the 90%? So she is part of only a small minority among women hearing the news. I would want to know what the 90% think before changing the practice for everyone.

Laughing to have returned here days later and found that the thread had been derailed 😂

No, what is delude is telling a bunch of individuals to ‘self-reflect’ when you have no idea who they are, their experiences and their knowledge.

As for remits, if I ever need to know how a mother births a child and the whole process of childbirth, I will ask a midwife.

If I ever need to consider the safeguarding impact of having men in women’s spaces I will ask

• the woman who was raped on a female only ward in 2021 by a trans woman.
• ‘Sarah’ whose safe space in rape crisis was taken away when the group started to be attended by a TiM in 2022
• The women in women’s prisons sexually assaulted by TiM prisoners
• Anybody who has had to wax Jessica Yaniv
• Anybody who has had to seek Lilly Contino in a women’s bathroom or witness him in child friendly public spaces repeatedly explain his ‘sex change’ surgery.

The list goes on.

@potpourree

The main reason for individualised and inclusive language is to build a trusting and transparent rapport with the service user. Most people we encounter speak English well enough to communicate and do not have SEND so while simplifying language and using other communication aids are relevant to adapting language, these arent issues that dominates every language choice.

Why would a financial analyser or bus driver have anything to contribute to how midwives speak to their service users?

When you are the service user, you can have complete control over how you and your midwife communicate with each other.

What if the financial analyser or bus driver are pregnant women, do they have anything to contribute about the language used by midwifes to them?

Yes. I think one was feminist theory.

Because maybe this financial analyst or bus driver has a greater awareness of the wider impact of language than a rather blinkered midwife.

If you perpetuate the myth that TiM are anything but men,

• you support their access to female only spaces.
• you reinforce gender stereotypes that there is only ‘one way’ to be a man.
• and you support the irreversible mutilation and sterilisation of (often autistic, often gay) vulnerable children.

Males are males, females are females and the inherent differences between the two combined with socialisation means that while there is not one way to be a male or female, a man cannot be a woman and a woman cannot be a man.

It's very obvious that you have no experience in healthcare if I am having to explain the basics of communicating with a service user as part of their holistic care.

The fact that you're talking to a midwife about having "men in women's spaces" indicates that we probably have to revise our biology.

@FallenSloppyDead2 unfortunately I did get sucked it, but you are absolutely right!

Irritatingly I think the above sums it up perfectly.

No a financial analyst or a bus driver speaking to a midwife about excluding TW from maternity spaces really doesnt have a clue what they're on about. They have no business speaking about language for maternity service users because they don't even understand who uses maternity services.

Yes I think this is spot on.

I completely agree.

It is evident that your grasp of biology is none existent if you can’t understand that men are men and women are women, a worry for the NHS indeed.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.

I believe you believe this to be true and are saying it in good faith, but the truth is that we humans are far less in control of our minds than we like to believe, and playacting something too often does change how we think about that thing.

Who said I don't understand that? Have you even read your own thread??

Do you understand that a TW will never be a service user in a maternity ward? You understand that they will never be in a ward for pregnancy and birth because they don't possess the anatomy to to conceive. Therefore, as a midwife, TW arent even on my radar. TM are. Why? Because they may get pregnant. When they are pregnant, just like any other service user, you have to adapt your language to encourage a trusting and transparent relationship. That is key to safe care.

Expressing things in ways your audience will understand, yes. Outright lying though, no.

If someone believes her cancer was caused because God is angry with her, would you pretend God has blessed the chemo to persuade her to take it?

Well that is due to your inexperience as a HCP. We regularly have to shift in all kinds of ways to build the best rapport we can with our service users. Language is just one way we do this.

It really isnt a problem at all.

No because a HCP never coerces people into consenting to treatment so the situation would never arise. The HCP would hopefully offer enough information for the patient to make a choice based on whatever knowledge bank they prefer to use. When someone declines recommended treatment, they don't need a logical or rational reason why for their refusal to be valid.

Again, these are things you learn as you do your HCP degree.

While I absolutely know you’re being goady and deliberately obtuse, I’m going to repeat the following.

’If you perpetuate the myth that TiM (and TiF) are anything but men (or women),

• you support the access of men to female only spaces.
• you reinforce gender stereotypes that there is only ‘one way’ to be a man or woman
• and you support the irreversible mutilation and sterilisation of (often autistic, often gay) vulnerable children.

Males are males, females are females and the inherent differences between the two combined with socialisation means that while there is not one way to be a male or female, a man cannot be a woman and a woman cannot be a man.’

And that is why accurate and correct language is important.

All your posts show your complete inability to accept the wider implications of your actions.

I just want to repost this here.

And if you had read the thread, youd have seen that my position is that TW are TW and TM are TM. But because you haven't read your own thread, you don't know that, do you?

Instead your following the exact tropes that I posted on page 2 of this thread.

This is not the ‘gotcha moment’ you think it is.

What it is is the Squishedpassanger ‘brings up the fact she is a
midwife that uses gender inclusive language’ on every recent thread she has been on resulting in the derailment of the thread while squishedpassenger feigns confusion, then reasonableness while being obtuse.

edited because I forgot a step.

then argues against every poster for pages.

Im not engaging with you any more, either you are who you say you are at which point I hope that eventually you understand things further than your maternity ward or you aren’t.