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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
58
Easytoconfuse · 12/12/2025 09:59

ArabellaSaurus · 11/12/2025 16:07

The class aspect is written in ten feet high neon letters, imo.

The Lanyards get nice things for nice people. Their desires are about living their real, true, precious inner selves, with the big words and the deep and righteous thoughts. They know the Right Side of HIstory, because they're the ones that write it.

The 'bum wipers' must learn to do as they're told and stay in their place Their desires are common and a bit simple and naff, and prudish and unprogressive. They read the wrong papers, make jokes that are crass, and are not very impressive victims.

On that note, I just read this on Reddit earlier:

'Since when did alleged victims of harassment and sexual misconduct hold press conferences full of tabloid journalists after losing their case?
If I were a legitimate victim of half the stuff she’s accused Upton of doing, I’d be hiding at home having a very long and thoughtful cry, not workshopping headlines with the editor of the Mail!'

It's past time these disgusting sentiments were revealed as the base misogynist, rapey, victim blaming nonsense they actually are. 'Progressive' my arse.

Interesting viewpoint. Speaking of which, where is Dr Upton?

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 09:59

contemporaneousnote · 12/12/2025 09:21

After reading some comments on Reddit (they are hopeful that Naomi made the quoting error) I searched through the submissions for the quotes.

I couldn't find anything the same, so ( unless I missed one, which is eminently possible) it seems unlikely that it was a cut and paste of a mis-quote from submissions.

JR : Used 'hierarchy' three times (my bold) but not in the same quote -

48. To the extent that the FWS judgment means (contrary to what the Supreme Court justices
said at §248) that the judgment has created a hierarchy of rights within the EqA, it is
submitted that there are two key problems with this approach (identified by Robin Allen
KC in the DLA Briefings July 2025 article):
48.1. First, a practical problem: it is not practicable to give effect to this hierarchy;
48.2. Second, a principled problem: that hierarchy would not survive contact with the European Convention on Human Rights (in relation to which see the ECtHR
jurisprudence set out above).

Naomi didn't use hierarchy in her general or supplemental submissions and I was unable to find Ashers/ enshrined anywhere either.

I am actually pissing myself that this idiot is quoting ‘DLA briefings’ as if it’s a takedown of the Supreme Court Judgment.

That’s an opinion piece by a lawyer in practice. What the actual heck.

Jesus Sandy have you no personal shame????

whatwouldafeministdo · 12/12/2025 10:00

ArabellaSaurus · 12/12/2025 09:24

Beth and his insistence he would treat a patient who had specifically requested single sex care only?

Yes, that's a whole other can of worms, isn't it?

Now the court case is over and (piss poor) judgement issued I think that the regulator said they'd look at concerns (they were trying to punt it into the long grass). Can anyone remember who we complain to? Is it the GMC?

Largesso · 12/12/2025 10:00

contemporaneousnote · 12/12/2025 09:21

After reading some comments on Reddit (they are hopeful that Naomi made the quoting error) I searched through the submissions for the quotes.

I couldn't find anything the same, so ( unless I missed one, which is eminently possible) it seems unlikely that it was a cut and paste of a mis-quote from submissions.

JR : Used 'hierarchy' three times (my bold) but not in the same quote -

48. To the extent that the FWS judgment means (contrary to what the Supreme Court justices
said at §248) that the judgment has created a hierarchy of rights within the EqA, it is
submitted that there are two key problems with this approach (identified by Robin Allen
KC in the DLA Briefings July 2025 article):
48.1. First, a practical problem: it is not practicable to give effect to this hierarchy;
48.2. Second, a principled problem: that hierarchy would not survive contact with the European Convention on Human Rights (in relation to which see the ECtHR
jurisprudence set out above).

Naomi didn't use hierarchy in her general or supplemental submissions and I was unable to find Ashers/ enshrined anywhere either.

In the Newman/ Police judgment it says something along the lines of ‘hierarchy as characterised by Cunningham’ (from memory) but there don’t seem to be submissions to check again further to that.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 10:02

contemporaneousnote · 12/12/2025 09:21

After reading some comments on Reddit (they are hopeful that Naomi made the quoting error) I searched through the submissions for the quotes.

I couldn't find anything the same, so ( unless I missed one, which is eminently possible) it seems unlikely that it was a cut and paste of a mis-quote from submissions.

JR : Used 'hierarchy' three times (my bold) but not in the same quote -

48. To the extent that the FWS judgment means (contrary to what the Supreme Court justices
said at §248) that the judgment has created a hierarchy of rights within the EqA, it is
submitted that there are two key problems with this approach (identified by Robin Allen
KC in the DLA Briefings July 2025 article):
48.1. First, a practical problem: it is not practicable to give effect to this hierarchy;
48.2. Second, a principled problem: that hierarchy would not survive contact with the European Convention on Human Rights (in relation to which see the ECtHR
jurisprudence set out above).

Naomi didn't use hierarchy in her general or supplemental submissions and I was unable to find Ashers/ enshrined anywhere either.

@prh47bridge - I’ve never seen this before? Quoting DLA briefings in a Judgment??

Anything like that in your ken?

Skyellaskerry · 12/12/2025 10:03

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 09:29

Not sure but right now I'm very interested in getting a copy so any clever people think of any ideas let me know.

I wondered about trade associations, or potentially trade union. I saw eBay have some vintage standards but not searched properly yet.

Majorconcern · 12/12/2025 10:03

prh47bridge · 12/12/2025 09:58

I think this change goes beyond what is allowed by the rules. The slip rule allows courts to correct accidental errors, omissions or clerical mistakes. I think this goes beyond that definition. I suspect Kemp will be criticised by the EAT for making this change in addition to the criticisms they will clearly make of the original judgement.

Are you confident that the EAT won't be raving mad as well? Do we know what sort of judges sit in it?

MarieDeGournay · 12/12/2025 10:04

whatwouldafeministdo · 12/12/2025 08:39

Presumably Sandie could take legal action against Dr U separately about the allegedly completely made up patient safety allegations? He tried to end her career after all.

I've been looking at the judgement specifically about that, and it looks like the allegations were not believed...but DrU believed them, or something.
In some places the judgement emphasises SP's unblemished professional record -

74 The claimant had an unblemished disciplinary record with the first respondent throughout the period of her employment, with no complaints against her by other staff until after the incident on 24 December 2023 referred to below. No complaints have been made by any patient treated by the claimant. The claimant has treated a number of patients who identify as trans men or women.

636 There is we conclude nothing in the allegation of some form of prior criticism of the claimant’s performance at work in relation to a colleague who was a more junior nurse – the evidence we did not consider came near to establishing any form of fault by the claimant over that. The evidence was of an unblemished thirty-year career until the Christmas Eve incident, and of there being no patient complaints of any kind.

As far as I remember, the patient safety allegations contributed significantly to the suspension - open to correction on that - but eventually

247 There was no written record of any complaint against the claimant by a patient or member of staff. Ms Myles considered that there was no sufficient reason for the claimant to remain on suspension.

The judge dismisses the allegation of endangering patient safety, and even says that DrU did not say that the patients were put in danger, he just brought the incidents up... I dunno, to add colour to his general ill-will towards SP, or something...

The judge makes clear that he does not believe that SP put patients in danger.
and that there were
' no complaints against her by other staff until after the incident on 24 December 2023'

but he fails to take it a step further: if DrU had not made these unfounded allegations against SP, her professional career would not have been put in question and [I think, open to correction, but I think it was these incidents that 'justified' suspension] she would not have been suspended, and wouldn't have been put through what she has endured.

A nurse has an unblemished 30 year career - she has a confrontation with DrU - he makes unfounded allegations - all hell breaks loose for her.
But he is a credible and reliable witness..

654. Whilst there had been some general references in written notes made by the second respondent to earlier incidents, and to an escalation, it was not clear exactly what that escalation was intended to refer to. The claimant agreed that on two occasions she had remained outside the changing room when the second respondent was present, but denied that she had acted as alleged on 26 August or between October and 18 December 2023 in a manner that adversely affected patient safety. In all the circumstances, particularly as if it were true that the claimant had left a position that might be detrimental to a patient that could affect patient safety, where no allegation formally was made at that time, and as the second respondent’s phone note as to the missing patient incident stated in terms that it was not a matter of patient safety, we concluded that it is not likely that either matter happened in any manner that affected patient safety. No findings in fact on the matters in relation to any adverse impact on patient safety are made accordingly.
[my emphasis]

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 12/12/2025 10:04

I just simply cannot get over the fact that a medical doctor and a judge are entirely happy, even proud to declare that a man can turn into a woman simply by changing his appearance to conform to sexist stereotyping.

It is either genuinely delusional or deliberately disingenuous. I don’t know which is worse. In a medical doctor, the former. In a a judge, the latter is worse?

I am no stranger to impaired cognitive function and believing in (can’t think of the right word sorry) total bollocks that isn’t real. This week I was convinced I had co-authored an academic research paper with Pedro Pascal. To the point I very clearly “remembered” arguing with him over citations/footnote styles. Immediately after the argument I told DH all about it whilst he made soothing noises and fetched a pillow. When I tell my neurologist Blush his response will undoubtedly be stifled laughter “okay, shall we increase xx medication slightly?” and not “okay, I totally believe you”. Because…reality! How could I have faith in a medical professional who couldn’t identify clear clinical features of delusion, and instead re-affirmed it?

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 10:08

WearyAuldWumman · 12/12/2025 09:27

So...People who understand these things...

Is it possible to appeal the aspersions cast on Sandie by pointing out that Upton agreed that she hadn't mentioned Isla Bryson and also by pointing out that the truthfulness about flooding wasn't something that the judge could discount?

I'm still seeing some male arsewipes on FB Fife news crowing that Sandie Peggie harassed Upton.

It’s an appealablepoint that the judge came to conclusions that were contrary to both the claimant and respondents witnesses.

Maybe ground C below

Not sure that Naomi had the stenographers for that but there will be notes and Tribunal Tweets.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Practice-Direction-Employment-Appeal-Tribunal-2024-1.pdf
2.5
2.5.What might be an error of law?
2.5.1
2.5.1. There might be an arguable error of law where, for example, an Employment Tribunal:
a
applied the wrong legal test (you would need to state what you say was the correct legal test and identify the incorrect legal test that you say the Employment Tribunal applied)
b
incorrectly applied the correct legal test (you would need to state what you say was the correct legal test and say how the Employment Tribunal applied it incorrectly)
c
reached a decision of fact for which there was no evidence (it is not sufficient to argue that there was more evidence for an alternative factual conclusion)
d
reached a decision which no reasonable Employment Tribunal, directing itself properly on the law, could have reached (it is not sufficient to argue that a different Employment Tribunal may have made a different decision)
e
failed to take into account a relevant matter or took into account an irrelevant matter (you would need to state what the relevant matter was and how the Employment Tribunal knew you relied on it and/or state what irrelevant matter was taken into account)
f
decided a point that was not argued (you would need to clearly state the point that you contend was not argued)
g
gave reasons that do not, in broad terms, enable you to understand why you lost
h
did not follow the correct procedure in a way that affected the outcome (you would have to give full details of the procedure that was not followed and how it affected the outcome)
i
conducted the hearing in an unfair way (you would have to give full details of what was done that was unfair and say whether and, if so, how it affected the outcome)

Practice Direction Employment Appeal Tribunal 2024

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Practice-Direction-Employment-Appeal-Tribunal-2024-1.pdf

ThreeWordHarpy · 12/12/2025 10:10

The misquoting thing is still bugging me as a symptom of poor authorship in general. We had a helpful explanation in an earlier thread that legal referencing isn’t necessarily approached in the same way as academic referencing. Which is why the judge didn’t follow the hyperlinks in a document.

However, surely if you are directly quoting from another document, and a judgement no less, you would always go directly to the source document and cut and paste from there? I do.

So then the question has become where did the judge get that text from. I understand all the speculation on use of LLM and trying to reproduce the “error”, but I think if we zoom out a bit the bigger picture is that the judge was being (at best) sloppy. Doing something you would not accept in a student’s work let alone from a legal professional of his experience. As a pp said, he seems to have taken an approach of “never mind the quality, feel the width” and hoped no one would read all 300+ pages.

To me it raises questions on why a judge is producing a judgement of such poor quality, especially on one of the most high profile tribunals in years. Was he under pressure (time, politics), or was he actually not capable of presiding over a hearing of such complexity and length - which must be very rare on his circuit?

when you compare the written document to those produced by EJ Young or EJ Goodman in the Phoenix and Bailey cases, where there were also huge bundles and numbers of witnesses by ET standards, the difference is stark.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 10:12

Majorconcern · 12/12/2025 10:03

Are you confident that the EAT won't be raving mad as well? Do we know what sort of judges sit in it?

Well they’ll have seen the eyes upon them.

And they’re normally more experienced, better balanced and actually read SC judgments. So a better chance.

But if not up and up and up we go. Sandie and her team are ready for the fight.

The SC say changing facilities and sanitary conveniences are single sex. So when this case needs them all will become clear.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 12/12/2025 10:12

NotanotherWeek · 12/12/2025 07:47

Thw judge I knew went a bit bonkers and it started to become obvious. The process to remove him would have caused more publicity on top of what there had been, and the chief honcho said frankly to me that they would rather not use that route. It would have raised doubts about other decisions, and I note that The Times piece casts doubt on Kemp’s other cases. So my guy went silently, I think by a mixture of threats and blandishments, always preferred by the Establishment over a scandal.

This is what happened to Victoria McCloud who was retired at the age of 55 because he had become increasingly erratic & was proselytising transgender issues. He was by all accounts originally a brilliant lawyer & judge who became completely unhinged. Some of us with public sector pensions are very grateful for the McCloud judgment.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pensions-programme-mccloud-compensation/pensions-programme-mccloud-compensation

Pensions Programme – McCloud compensation

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pensions-programme-mccloud-compensation/pensions-programme-mccloud-compensation

whatwouldafeministdo · 12/12/2025 10:12

DrBlackbird · 12/12/2025 09:38

This ^^ is what infuriates me the most (out of a long list of what infuriates me) because these liberal knee jerk anything goes but yet offended at the slightest provocation progressives are the ones fully opening the door to the likes of Trump and Farage. Pushing it wide open and waving voters in. In doing so, they are complicit in allowing Trump to subsequently demolish democracy and erode many citizens rights including women’s rights.

I recall one woman Latino voter saying ahead of the 2024 election that she’d normally be a democratic voter but that she did not agree that TWAW so felt that she could no longer vote for her Democratic candidate.

If the left had not swung so far left so as to lose centrist voters, the right would not have enlarged. Just really drives me to despair this lack of joined up thinking and lack of strategic insight into public sentiments by the Democrats and by Labour, Greens etc And the thing is, they’re still at it! Electing bloody Polanski as leader of the Greens, all these backbench Labour MPs wringing their hands trying to gerrymander the SC ruling and delaying guidance.

It is all going to end in tears because of their liberal sanctimonious virtue signalling. And we will all suffer for it!

Agree.

Thing is, I actually know some working class americans who are Trump voters. Some of the nicest, most decent, human beings I've ever had the pleasure to meet. People who are there for others when they need it not with words like 'inclusion' and made up shite but with real things - food, money, hard graft.

Compare and contrast, someone like that - who'd give you the shirt off their back if you needed it - and Upton.

My recent observation is that the nice, decent, honest people appear to be the ones voting Trump / Farage. Gives you pause.

And to all the Upton's and Searles. Deeds not words. You can say you're progressive and inclusive until you're blue in the face (or hair) but if what we see is you trying to destroy a decent, hard-working nurse for wanting a single sex changing room then we disregard what you say.

Personally I really rate Kemi B and some of her shadow cabinet but they are saddled with the legacy and failures of the previous Tory governments, particularly Boris, which I think it's going to be very difficult to overcome. I hope they do though. Kemi as PM would be infinitely better than anyone else I can think of in politics at the moment.

prh47bridge · 12/12/2025 10:13

WearyAuldWumman · 12/12/2025 09:27

So...People who understand these things...

Is it possible to appeal the aspersions cast on Sandie by pointing out that Upton agreed that she hadn't mentioned Isla Bryson and also by pointing out that the truthfulness about flooding wasn't something that the judge could discount?

I'm still seeing some male arsewipes on FB Fife news crowing that Sandie Peggie harassed Upton.

The judgement does not say that she mentioned Isla Bryson. It was admitted that she had referred to the women's prison incident. The tribunal decided that was a reference to Bryson. That conclusion may be wrong. It is possible she was referring to a different prisoner. However, it is supported by evidence and it is not perverse for the court to make this finding. It will not be overturned unless the case is sent back to the ET to start again from scratch. Even then, given that SP has admitted referring to the women's prison incident, another ET may make the same finding.

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · 12/12/2025 10:15

However, surely if you are directly quoting from another document, and a judgement no less, you would always go directly to the source document and cut and paste from there? I do.

I am not an academic or a lawyer, in many ways a bear of little brain and haven't had to write anything in very many years, but I cannot understand why anyone, let alone a judge, would risk not doing this.

Keeptoiletssafe · 12/12/2025 10:17

Skyellaskerry · 12/12/2025 09:56

Thanks for offering @MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL I am uncomfortable right now sharing any more detail on a public forum but I do appreciate all the information and links and gathering into my own wee set of facts and refs!

No need to reply to this, but if it’s for a secondary school pm me as I have a report that would be of use. There are different ‘rules’.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 12/12/2025 10:18

Actually I have vague memories of a discussion with a neurologist and being told there are different types of delusions (sure someone here will be an expert and can clarify!) and one type of delusion is diagnosed as clearly untrue as it would be impossible (like my Pedro Pascal research paper) rather than a delusion which was an exaggeration of “normal” life or reality and not as easily disprovable such as “I think my DH is having an affair”. (I’m very sorry my language/explaining ability hasn’t caught up this morning). The thought of being treated by a doctor like Upton is genuinely genuinely terrifying for me, as I rely on medical professionals when I am post ictal (and need to be told that Pedro Pascal does not favour the MHRA referencing style).

PrettyDamnCosmic · 12/12/2025 10:19

NaomiCunninghamHasHadHerWeetabixAgain · 12/12/2025 08:51

I’m slightly curious how it’s all going for the ‘friend’ of Sandie who was happy to turn up in the last few days with some WhatsApp messages (that she was laughing at with her emojis) while revealing details of patient information on the same WhatsApp group. I’m hoping she’s being investigated by her employer or the NMC? Does that need a formal complaint to be made about her to NMC?

Also, the fragrant Beth and his insistence he would treat a patient who had specifically requested single sex care only? What’s happening from a regulatory perspective?

Not to mention the others at NHS Fife who have all conducted themselves in ways that could easily see themselves (if they didn’t work for such a disfunctional organisation) facing conduct investigations. In the case of Bumba, I’d argue capability investigation.

The Once for Scotland NHS policies around conduct highlight examples of misconduct and there’s arguably a number of participants in this case who should be facing an internal investigation. One of these relates to equality and diversity policies and failure to uphold and I can’t help but think that NONE of them allowed Sandie any sex based rights. I include within that Bumba whose job is to ensure those rights are protected. In and ideal world, almost all of them would be facing internal investigations over their part in this (Jamie Doyle and his suspension without investigation is another), the instances of bullying and harassment by the consultants, failure to uphold professional standards by the Doctor (his allegations of patient safety that he did hee haw about until it suited him to ‘mention’ them), the consultants who did nothing about the same patient safety allegations which would apparently leave patients at risk if this patient safety incident actually happened (even if it turns out there’s no record of it), etc, Only one witness from Fife seemed to understand that the consultants who did nothing about these allegations should be taken to task for this themselves. (Apologies, forget her name but she seemed the only vaguely credible witness they had).

I feel sorry for those in NHS Fife working hard, doing their job, and yet have a culture where they can ostracise wrong thinkers for having such outdated ideas like, you know, wanting a female only space to change in like the law entitles them to!

Edited

It was Lottie Miles who came over as the only honest & competent witness for Fife. She investigated Sandie's suspension & said it should end but had pushback from the consultants & nurse managers.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 10:20

prh47bridge · 12/12/2025 09:58

I think this change goes beyond what is allowed by the rules. The slip rule allows courts to correct accidental errors, omissions or clerical mistakes. I think this goes beyond that definition. I suspect Kemp will be criticised by the EAT for making this change in addition to the criticisms they will clearly make of the original judgement.

He might have wanted to fix his big glaring mistake.

Two fatal errors

  • There are more hallucinations, a raft of typos, errors and false edits of SC judgment
  • He was allowed to do it with clearly no checks & balances

As my kids would say - you’re a silly sausage!

Andouillette · 12/12/2025 10:22

NotanotherWeek · 12/12/2025 07:47

Thw judge I knew went a bit bonkers and it started to become obvious. The process to remove him would have caused more publicity on top of what there had been, and the chief honcho said frankly to me that they would rather not use that route. It would have raised doubts about other decisions, and I note that The Times piece casts doubt on Kemp’s other cases. So my guy went silently, I think by a mixture of threats and blandishments, always preferred by the Establishment over a scandal.

Ah yes indeed. The modern equivalent of being sent to the billiard room with a glass of whisky and a suitable firearm.

contemporaneousnote · 12/12/2025 10:23

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 09:59

I am actually pissing myself that this idiot is quoting ‘DLA briefings’ as if it’s a takedown of the Supreme Court Judgment.

That’s an opinion piece by a lawyer in practice. What the actual heck.

Jesus Sandy have you no personal shame????

Sorry - I may not have been clear enough.
The quoted section was in the respondents' submission by JR not in the judgement.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 10:23

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · 12/12/2025 10:15

However, surely if you are directly quoting from another document, and a judgement no less, you would always go directly to the source document and cut and paste from there? I do.

I am not an academic or a lawyer, in many ways a bear of little brain and haven't had to write anything in very many years, but I cannot understand why anyone, let alone a judge, would risk not doing this.

Especially since everyone was watching and live tweeting. And half the barristers were up from London.

Maybe he gets away with total crap all the time. But you’d do it properly on this one.

He’s a poor lawyer, he’s a dodgy judge and he thinks Upton is feminine and credible. Hell mend him.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 10:24

contemporaneousnote · 12/12/2025 10:23

Sorry - I may not have been clear enough.
The quoted section was in the respondents' submission by JR not in the judgement.

Apologies - my mistake! Helpful clarification.

Gettingmadderallthetime · 12/12/2025 10:24

They will be more experienced judge. And aware that their judgement will have authority. My unease about getting the whole thing sent back to another tribunal is that a different judge at that level may make a different sort of pigs ear of the whole thing. Better to have an appeal. Judge Kemp has provided team Sandie with a lot of bases for appeal. They would appear to be spoilt for choice. A Christmas selection box of opportunities for Naomi and Ben to choose from? Very sad that Sandie has to go through more of this, but it is putting under the microscope many TRA claims that have never been properly examined in public before. Feeling optimistic (or have I just talked myself into that?)

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