Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

[nauticant]

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

Frankly it would seem they don't even need to go there.

The basic grounds for appeal:

Bits of this judgment are fictional.

It looks as if a judge and panel in a very high public interest case with a judgment that was going to be gone through with a toothcomb, didn't realise this.

It's actually a possibility that they used AI to write it.

It's incompatible with the SC Judgment and is attempting to re write something it has no authority to do.

It suggests that things are legal which in fact are not.

Two minutes to: this judgment would appear to be compromised beyond standing.

The interesting bit will be what they do about it. I would hope SP does not have to go through the entire process again for her sake.

Thank you!

The test is whether a fair-minded and informed observer, having considered all the circumstances, would conclude that there was a real possibility the tribunal was biased. For an example, in a case from 2023 the EAT ruled that the ET was biased because:

• the judge had indicated a witness was in contempt of court, when there was in fact an issue over disclosure
• the judge made a dismissive remark about the respondent's solicitor's experience
• the judge commented that the respondent's mitigation evidence was poor before that evidence had actually been heard

I'm not sure if SP's team can point to Kemp's behaviour during the hearing, but they may be able to argue that the way the tribunal has mangled the law in an attempt to support the respondents shows bias.

I had no idea that pre menopausal flooding was even a thing ( having gone through menopause myself ) until I attended a ' Menopause Cafe' at Filia in Bradford. It's dreadful that women have no idea that this can happen pre menopause. It must be so alarming to experience. It's just another example of how women's experiences are minimised, trivialized or ignored. And to have to deal with such an embarrassing emergency in front of a man in a space that you have every right to expect to be safe and private is just unthinkable.

And then to have no sympathy or understanding from medical professionals, but to be suspended from your job instead? I have no words really, it's just enraging isn't it?

I came to Mumsnet and FWR after Ben Cooper so can anyone please explain to me why everyone is so excited about him? Which case was he on? What’s his signature move? And there’s a wren?

Maybe the judge thought it could have been said to make the presence of a male in the CR seem even worse?
I don't think that, of course.

The judge didn't think that SP was entirely honest about the alleged Isla Bryson comment to DrU:
he noted that while she said she had not said anything about IB, because she was not aware of a prison incident involving a rapist, it was admitted in her papers that she was referring to IB.

And anyway the judge thought that as SP was arguing on the basis of GC beliefs, he couldn't believe she was not aware of the IB/prison case.
630..... a matter of particular concern, and of interest, to those with gender critical beliefs such as the claimant, that evidence seeking to distance herself from the remark which related to a rapist was we considered not credible.

I found this really useful (this has probably already been posted as it’s moving so fast).

I think based on discussions so far quite a few of these will apply to the judgment and whilst they can’t per se appeal against finding of fact as per credibility it would appear that there is room for significant arguments against how those facts were found and inferences drawn based on misreadings and misinterpretations of the law. For example, they found BU more credible than SP so favoured his version of the discussion in the CR but, as some have pointed out, if Kemp misinterpreted the law around manifestation of a protected believe his finding in relation to his inferences is wrong.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Practice-Direction-Employment-Appeal-Tribunal-2024-1.pdf

Even if she did mention Isla Bryson (or allude to him if she didn't know his name), it's a fair comparison. Both Bryson and Upton are men who say they are women, and used this false claim to gain access to women's facilities.

If Upton doesn't want to be compared to a rapist then he should respect women's boundaries.

The judgment was fundamentally wrong.

It said changing rooms aren't single sex and men are allowed into them.

So everyone else can point to it and say trans men are allowed into women's spaces. So all women's rights are held back.

It also clarifies that Sandy (the Hallucinator) Kemp who made up his nonsensical crap of men go into ladies until a lady says I'd rather not in a kind voice to her line manager and then something must be done but no one knows what.

The slate needs wiped clean. The judgment needs to say following the clarification in SC, trans identify people can identify as they feel - but they need to go back to their biological spaces.

And then everyone can have privacy and dignity in single sex spaces.

I appeal bans and sometimes win!

I don't go to the trans communities. There are still some places, or I should say, more recently some places, that allow dissent and debate.

The national sub I have been in earlier this evening isn't really one of them so I suspect the hammer has been wielded already 😂

I think the point was that it would be so offensive to compare DrU to a rapist that it was harassing?
1007. ....It was we concluded known to the claimant that the prisons incident was a reference to a convicted rapist. It was to be expected that the second respondent would take that reference to be an allegation that the second respondent was also some form of sexual predator.

Ben Cooper was not only involved in the FWS case and praised for his submissions, but he came to the attention of Mumsnet when he acted in a previous tribunal where one of the oh so delicate trans identifying male witnesses gave his evidence remotely surrounded by his solicitor, his mother and a support animal.
Ben was also working from his home I think and a wren was heard singing in the background. Mumsnet adopted the wren as Ben's support animal (not that he needed it)
Ben is also beloved not only for his vast intellect but his wry humour, a particular favourite being when he asked a flailing witness something like "It would be unkind to ask how that's going".
And a mumsnetter responded 'You can stop now Ben, I think he's dead'.

Somebody else may have a more detailed recollection.

You know how every witness correctly gendered DU as a he, does anyone reckon he'll be ballsy enough to appeal on something?

You know that line about 'fire up the Quatro'?

Think 'fire up the support wren'.

Like Naomi, Ben in action is quite something to see.

Ben’s wren (not to confused with Len’s lens on Strictly), came to the fore during lockdown, when ET’s were done remotely. During the Alison Bailey v Garden Court Chambers, I seem to remember that the Judge had a cat, one of the witnesses had an emotional support dog and assorted family members and Ben was accompanied by a garden wren.

Phrases like “It was Christmas”, “I reversed into a bin” are oft quoted.

Aye. Free bleeding as a specific choice or protest is one thing.

Only a male would make the comments theyve made about shame and menstruation.

There is a spectrum of reasons why, from utter cluelessness and a lack of imagination and empathy, right through to the most unsavoury reasons we'd all prefer not to even think about.

As ever, stupidity is the best case scenario, here.

You can argue that the tribunal reached a conclusion that no reasonable tribunal could have - i.e. perversity. I don't know any examples of how high that bar is and suspect it's not where we are.

I do have an appeal qn:

Even Justice Kemp acknowledged that some of Fife’s disclosure was so very late that NC was not able to ask questions of the early witnesses that she might have liked. Is that sufficient reason to be allowed to re-examine them?

No, not really. But amusing, nonetheless.

He can't appeal. The tribunal found in his favour on the complaints SP brought against him. He may not be happy about witnesses referring to him as a man, or about some of the things said in the judgement, but he can't appeal against those. He could only appeal if the tribunal had found in SP's favour on one or more of her complaints against him.

X

I am not sure thats going to get to the heart of the matter.

EJ SK wound his way through some hallucinated case law and car chop shop approach to SC FWS quotes to get to some bonkers test.

I think thats what needs appealled, not a go again at the witnesses.

I could be wrong.

How utterly delicious it is that Naomi has a full transcript of each word from the September sessions. Wise move.

Thursday 6th Feb, DU being examined by JR. Sandie mentioned prisons, DU assumed Isla Bryson. But we know there were other male prisoners in women’s prisons in Scotland. Why jump to the most notorious?

• He has a brain the size of a planet and a surgical precision in dissecting his opponent's arguments and witnesses which is delight to behold.
• He notably represented Allison Bailey.
• His signature move is to look up at the ceiling whilst formulating his question and slowly bring his gaze down to make eye contact with the witness as he delivers the final killer blow
• Much of the Allison Bailey case was conducted remotely. Observers were treated to a close up view of him in action (see signature move above) in his home office. There were glimpses of a beautiful garden outside the windows and in the quiet moments we could hear a wren.

Isla Bryson is a fair analogy. Another transwoman asserting his rights to access female spaces.